Bulls for Billionaires - MT EQC Meeting today 1:30 PM

[Gerald Martin]

Anyone want to talk about getting some decent numbers of elk back to using public lands?

Do that and a lot of these landowner focused discussions go away.

The reason Montana hunters are so worried about landowners is that elk hunting flat sucks in areas it shouldn't.

Nonstop pressure for months on public has altered elk behavior.

So, hunters have flat given up efforts that would get elk back on public land and are 100 percent focused on accessing what's left...which are elk that spend a majority of their lives on private.

Public land elk are

One of the reasons hunters aren’t focused on trying to figure out how to get elk back on public land is because they are ignorant.

They buy FWP’s line about “too many elk” and “opportunity” and buy multiple tags thinking there must be plenty of elk to kill on the areas they can hunt.

If the average hunter in MT thought much about the reality that each hunting season there are @ 150,000 hunters trying to kill the approximately 25,000 bull elk that are alive in Montana at any given time, I have to believe they would be outraged. At least they should be.

 

[Gerald Martin]

The elk on accessible lands are so pressured they flee to the King’s X.

I read an email from a manager of a “problem” elk ranch holding 1000’s of elk. He roughly stated that the elk have no chance to leave with hikers/four wheelers ect, keeping elk pushed in”

How are landowners going to solve this problem with their neighbors?

We have ten plus years of UPOM, stock growers and ag producers pressuring FWP legislatively to reduce elk and hunters have done the predictable with the tools available to them.

We have killed a majority of the accessible elk and landowners are still having problems.

How are the ones who have been complaining going to give solutions that work?

 

[Dakotakid]

The elk on accessible lands are so pressured they flee to the King’s X.

I read an email from a manager of a “problem” elk ranch holding 1000’s of elk. He roughly stated that the elk have no chance to leave with hikers/four wheelers ect, keeping elk pushed in”

But that is not developing public lands to attract elk off private lands issue, is it? Open question, not implying the answer

If the average hunter in MT thought much about the reality that each hunting season there are @ 150,000 hunters trying to kill the approximately 25,000 bull elk that are alive in Montana at any given time, I have to believe they would be outraged. At least they should be.

I completely agree that more hunter days has not resulted in over objective reductions. One early morning I watched taillights on a remote county road that looked like the line of traffic after a away game of a class b high school basketball game.

Growing more and more elk, as randy says growing the pie is great until that pie is on inaccessible land or drives private lands into the hands of people who are not sportsman friendly.

 

[Gerald Martin]

You do realize that the only elk herds that are growing in number are already on inaccessible private land for the majority of hunting season don’t you?

 

[Dakotakid]

You do realize that the only elk herds that are growing in number are already on inaccessible private land for the majority of hunting season don’t you?

No, I don’t agree completely with that premise.

The breaks herd continues to grow and impact landowners that do allow public access.
I have not heard the biologists numbers but I did not see the desired reduction that the additional 1000 cow tags had to reduce the herd.

 

[Gerald Martin]

No, I don’t agree completely with that premise.

The breaks herd continues to grow and impact landowners that do allow public access.
I have not heard the biologists numbers but I did not see the desired reduction that the additional 1000 cow tags had to reduce the herd.

In what units?

 

[Dakotakid]

410
417
Are two that I spent the most time in.

 

[Dakotakid]

410 had elk harbored on Harris but only for a portion of the season.

 

[Gerald Martin]

You can add 50, 500, 5000 or 50,000 tags to a unit where the elk live on inaccessible private during hunting season and it won’t affect the numbers as long as the elk remain off limits due to lack of access.

 

[Gerald Martin]

417 doesn’t lack for elk licenses or hunters. It does lack for adequate access and harboring on the Horse Ranch is a major factor that keeps objectives from being achieved from what I understand from friends who hunt it.

 

[Gerald Martin]

When you hunted 410 and 417 were the majority of elk you observed on public and accessible private land or on inaccessible private property?

 

[Dakotakid]

417 doesn’t lack for elk licenses or hunters. It does lack for adequate access and harboring on the Horse Ranch is a major factor that keeps objectives from being achieved from what I understand from friends who hunt it.

I agree the Horse Ranch is an inaccessible that makes management complex. But the neighbors suffer substantial impacts and actually would be an opportunity to partner with sportsman for public hunting if we could reduce the economic impact of that management conundrum.

 

[Dakotakid]

When you hunted 410 and 417 were the majority of elk you observed on public and accessible private land or on inaccessible private property?

410 I was able to hunt nearly everywhere, ranches that outfit, opened to support cow reductions.
Certainly Harris in 700 harbored some early in the season but most of the elk dispersed.
The dry weather definitely impacted herd bunching and movement.

My perspective is about herd health and population. I am not a horn hunter.

 

[Gerald Martin]

I agree the Horse Ranch is an inaccessible that makes management complex. But the neighbors suffer substantial impacts and actually would be an opportunity to partner with sportsman for public hunting if we could reduce the economic impact of that management conundrum.

Great. Hunters get more access. But until access is granted by the Horse Ranch, elk herds will continue to grow and hunters on accessible lands will have the opportunity to walk around and not shoot elk.

I am happy to help landowners out with increased game damage payment and game damage hunts where appropriate to remediate localized crop depredation.

Unit wide increases of cow tags and putting more pressure on accessible properties is counterproductive to alleviation of the effects elk have on the Horse Ranches neighbors.

Are we as hunters responsible to solve the relationship problems between two neighbors that stem from management differences?

No we are not. Not only that, we can’t solve what their neighbors can’t solve and ruining the resource in the rest of a unit in a futile attempt to solve that problem is irresponsible and wrong. Hunters and conservationists should know better and require better from FWP.

 

[Dakotakid]

Great. Hunters get more access. But until access is granted by the Horse Ranch, elk herds will continue to grow and hunters on accessible lands will have the opportunity to walk around and not shoot elk.

I am happy to help landowners out with increased game damage payment and game damage hunts where appropriate to remediate localized crop depredation.

Unit wide increases of cow tags and putting more pressure on accessible properties is counterproductive to alleviation of the effects elk have on the Horse Ranches neighbors.

Are we as hunters responsible to solve the relationship problems between two neighbors that stem from management differences?

No we are not. Not only that, we can’t solve what their neighbors can’t solve and ruining the resource in the rest of a unit in a futile attempt to solve that problem is irresponsible and wrong. Hunters and conservationists should know better and require better from FWP.

How

 

[Gerald Martin]

What concerns about herd health do you have in 410? I would consider 3200 elk in an area that large to be well under the carrying capacity of the habitat. I bet it could handle double that many elk without harm to the habitat or the elk.

I don’t hunt 410, but the reports of folks I know who do indicate diminishing bull/cow ratios and younger age classes/ smaller bulls as a result of increased either sex tags comparative to a decade ago.

 

[Gerald Martin]

How what? How do we require FWP to manage better?

If that’s your question, by doing the exact opposite that FWP has been doing for the past decade.

Reduce the amount of hunters, length of seasons, eliminate the harvest of cow elk on public land for a long enough period of time for elk to select public land as their sanctuaries. Hunters will have to adjust the mentality of what they “deserve” to reflect the reality of how much pressure the resource can handle.

 

[BuzzH]

But that is not developing public lands to attract elk off private lands issue, is it? Open question, not implying the answer

I completely agree that more hunter days has not resulted in over objective reductions. One early morning I watched taillights on a remote county road that looked like the line of traffic after a away game of a class b high school basketball game.

Growing more and more elk, as randy says growing the pie is great until that pie is on inaccessible land or drives private lands into the hands of people who are not sportsman friendly.

Isn't goddamn rocket science...instead of killing every elk off public for 11 weeks straight why not shorten seasons on public land elk? You know so they can actually live on and use public land instead of being pushed into private via 150,000 hunters?

Wyoming's general rifle seasons are 10-14 days and, real shocker, our elk stay on public and off private in those areas.

Funny how that works.

 

[Dakotakid]

Great. Hunters get Are we as hunters responsible to solve the relationship problems between two neighbors that stem from management differences?

No we are not. Not only that, we can’t solve what their neighbors can’t solve and ruining the resource in the rest of a unit in a futile attempt to solve that problem is irresponsible and wrong. Hunters and conservationists should know better and require better from FWP.

Hard to demand a seat at the table and throw up our hands and say it is up to the neighbors to work it out.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Isn't goddamn rocket science...instead of killing every elk off public for 11 weeks straight why not shorten seasons on public land elk? You know so they can actually live on and use public land instead of being pushed into private via 150,000 hunters?

Wyoming's general rifle seasons are 10-14 days and, real shocker, our elk stay on public and off private in those areas.

Funny how that works.

There’s no way a management strategy like that could work in MT. We have time honored traditions that must not be altered.
#sarcasm


Wyoming has a demonstrable track record of how different management strategies can give a better result for landowners, hunters and wildlife.