Bill barring permits in MO Breaks and other districts pops up

[Gerald Martin]

I've been trying to figure out the logic behind this bill. I talked to a family friend who lives in the breaks and as you can guess he opposes this bill. However, he did admit there is a problem in the breaks that there are certain areas (410 specifically) there are tons of elk that come onto actual rancher's properties and are "eating them out of house and home." Problem is they call the fwp, who then attemps damage hunts, etc etc but the vast majority of the elk then run onto ranches that allow NO HUNTING, or are pay to play. It seems to me essentially this is just a great example of the current state of western hunting. Big money land owners come in, buy large ranches, horde elk herds like they own them, dont let the herds be managed as they should be and screw over thier neighbors who are real ranchers/ farmers who actually need the land to make a living. Its crazy the legislature could think this idea/bill will work to manage herds, its only going to grow the divide between common people and large money land owners.

Montana ranchers don’t have elk problems. They have neighbor problems.
It’s easier to shoot the elk than it is working with the neighbors to find solutions.

 

[Luke_with_a_lab]

Montana ranchers don’t have elk problems. They have neighbor problems.
It’s easier to shoot the elk than it is working with the neighbors to find solutions.

I guess I dont quite understand what you mean. At least in 410, I think the lack of cow elk getting shot september through november is the problem.

 

[golfer]

I guess I dont quite understand what you mean. At least in 410, I think the lack of cow elk getting shot september through november is the problem.

For example in a district in the Breaks there is a ranch that was bought by a guy to be an elk sanctuary and they farm it to be just that . The neighbors who have been in the area much longer realize there is a problem, but when one guy doens't wanna cooperate you get what we see is happening.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I guess I dont quite understand what you mean. At least in 410, I think the lack of cow elk getting shot september through november is the problem.

If folks with B tags can't get to elk, because they're on someone's property where public hunting is disallowed, how could they shoot more elk?

 

[Ben Lamb]

I've been trying to figure out the logic behind this bill. I talked to a family friend who lives in the breaks and as you can guess he opposes this bill. However, he did admit there is a problem in the breaks that there are certain areas (410 specifically) there are tons of elk that come onto actual rancher's properties and are "eating them out of house and home." Problem is they call the fwp, who then attemps damage hunts, etc etc but the vast majority of the elk then run onto ranches that allow NO HUNTING, or are pay to play. It seems to me essentially this is just a great example of the current state of western hunting. Big money land owners come in, buy large ranches, horde elk herds like they own them, dont let the herds be managed as they should be and screw over thier neighbors who are real ranchers/ farmers who actually need the land to make a living. Its crazy the legislature could think this idea/bill will work to manage herds, its only going to grow the divide between common people and large money land owners.

The logic behind the bill comes from landowners & outfitters who were angry over the Breaks & the 23 bundled districts going to LE permits in 2008. They've been carrying around a ton of hate for 13 years because it cut their kingdom's revenue stream significantly as they controlled large swaths of MT for elk hunting for paying dudes. In some districts there were as few as 10% resident hunter harvest on elk due to outfitter & landowner control of the public resource. The LE permits meant that the 10% rule got flipped and that hurt some outfitters & landowners who made a lot of money on elk now didn't have the ability to sell unlimited archery elk hunts. The gropup UPOM was started expressly to undo the LE permits, and they've branched out into ranching for wildlife, trying to eliminate stream access and suing to stop Tribes from getting Bison, among many, many other dumb ideas.

 

[Dakotakid]

I know one rancher in 410 that has stopped planting crops because of the elk destruction. We shot two cow elk in the willows next to a different ranchers corn field that looked to be a resident pod. Only because the larger herd of 400 came upwind off sanctuary ranch did the small pod spook.

 

[Gerald Martin]

For example in a district in the Breaks there is a ranch that was bought by a guy to be an elk sanctuary and they farm it to be just that . The neighbors who have been in the area much longer realize there is a problem, but when one guy doens't wanna cooperate you get what we see is happening.

And to further expound on this topic...
The Elk Management Plan (EMP) has “objective” numbers established for each unit and FWP has to manage to maintain those numbers under the maximum allowed.

“Objective” is an arbitrary number picked on the basis of social tolerance for elk in the area, not biological carrying capacity.

The Montana legislature legally requires FWP to manage for numbers at or below objective.

When elk who happen to be pretty adept at surviving) learn to find sanctuary during hunting season on property that for various reasons don’t facilitate enough harvest to allow for “objective” to be maintained those herds grow.
Landowners whose social tolerance for elk is low complain to FWP. “Shoulder Seasons” come into existence as an attempt to get elk numbers below “objective.”
Areas off limits to public hunting during the regular season usually stay off limits in the shoulder seasons as well. Elk on accessible private get hammered and either die or survivors head to sanctuary areas. Elk herds continue to grow, except for the areas where Joe Public is allowed to hunt. Those elk are dead.
FWP publicizes the “opportunity” available in over objective areas. Joe Public takes that opportunity to look at elk in the areas closed to access and take his gun for a walk without finding elk on accessible land.

Montana doesn’t have an elk problem. It has people relationship problems.

 

[tjones]

Hook this bill up with SB143 and think what we would have.

No LE elk units and outfitter set asides. Every ranch with elk would be prime targets for outfitters to lease.

Think what the welfare outfitters could charge for bull elk hunts on private ranches that previously required a LE bull elk permit.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Hook this bill up with SB143 and think what we would have.

No LE elk units and outfitter set asides. Every ranch with elk would be prime targets for outfitters to lease.

Think what the welfare outfitters could charge for bull elk hunts on private ranches that previously required a LE bull elk permit.

Add on top of that the bill to remove sportsman oversight from the Board of Outfitters and severely weaken oversight by the BOO in general, and you get a picture of what some folks really want for wildlife in MT.

The strategy for this session reminds me of a 15 year old kid & his first old-fashioned from someone other than himself.

 

[tjones]

With GG at the helm the current legislature is so brazen they don't even try and hide the fact they are giving the resident sportsmen the middle finger. FU voters of Montana you had no clue on I161, let me fix your screw up. Much of the very same voters that elected the current Helena crew.

Honestly you can't make this stuff up, and all will be forgotten next election.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Honestly you can't make this stuff up, and all will be forgotten next election.

Not if these bills pass. The effects of bills like this might be enough for Joe Public to realize that the segment of the hunting community that commercializes access to our resource are responsible for less opportunity.

If proposed legislation becomes a reality, I will be further entrenched in my growing perspective that outfitters are not some to work with, but someone to oppose.

 

[tjones]

Not if these bills pass. The effects of bills like this might be enough for Joe Public to realize that the segment of the hunting community that commercializes access to our resource are responsible for less opportunity.

If proposed legislation becomes a reality, I will be further entrenched in my growing perspective that outfitters are not some to work with, but someone to oppose.

I would hope you are right Gerald but next election the rally cry "they are coming for our guns" will ring across Montana and nothing will change. I have little faith in Montana voters.

 

[brockel]

This is awesome.
I've got my 2021 season all planned out already. Spend archery season in the Elkhorns looking for 350"+ bull. If I don't find what I'm looking for, I'll take the first week of rifle and try to get er' done in 410. If I still can't make it happen I'll take 2-weeks in mid-December and hit the Gardiner area with my muzzle loader.
This season is going to be epic.

Been a while since you’ve been in 410 huh

 

[Drake4]

Been a while since you’ve been in 410 huh

Have shot 3 elk in the last 4 years there.

 

[Gerald Martin]

I would hope you are right Gerald but next election the rally cry "they are coming for our guns" will ring across Montana and nothing will change. I have little faith in Montana voters.

Maybe billboards with a hunter holding up a February calf elk fetus taken from a shoulder season cow is the public relations equivalent to “ they can have my guns when.....”

 

[MTGomer]

This has been introduced as HB417

https://leg.mt.gov/bills/2021/billpdf/HB0417.pdf

It would forbid special permits in units that are over population objectives pursuant to 87-1-323 which declares that “ The department shall consider the specific concerns of private landowners when determining sustainable numbers”

87-1-323. Viable elk, deer, and antelope populations based on habitat acreage -- reduction of populations as necessary, MCA

leg.mt.gov

 

[Ben Lamb]

It applies for deer, elk & pronghorn.

So kiss those struggling speed goat herds goodbye.

 

[Gevock]

Montana Wildlife Federation

It's been introduced as HB 417​

HB 417, sponsored by Rep. Josh Kassmier, R-Ft. Benton, would bar Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks from using special permits for bulls and bucks in hunting districts that are over the objective population. This would lead to a slaughter of bull elk in the Missouri River Breaks for the rifle season, no special draws in the Bear Paw Mountains and changes everywhere else. Killing bull elk isn’t the solution to populations over the objective, and this bill is an effort to take away authority from professional biologists. Hunters from throughout Montana and the country will strongly oppose this bill.

 

[Luke_with_a_lab]

I just dont see how this passes. Once MT residents start to become aware of this, shit is going to hit the fan.

 

[WIbiggame]

This bill sucks in a lot of ways.

The one that hurts a lot is that having these LE areas gives me something to dream about buying points. It is awesome knowing that eventually I will get to hunt a "premiere" area in such a great state. This bill would eliminate that dream for myself and many others like me. Sure I could forgo the wait if this past and join the slaughter for 1 maybe 2 years than what? It would be cool if my daughters could also have a crack at these units.