Background checks on ammo purchases.

[jryoung]

I have a buddy who manages construction crew, and from his perspective, it is not immigrants "taking" jobs from citizens, it is able bodied citizens who are unwilling to work tough jobs that are left unfilled until immigrants apply for them that is where the real problem is - the one we are afraid to talk about. This nation was built by hard working immigrants -- I would gladly trade some of our unmotivated, entitled and lazy citizens for the motivated, hard working citizens of other countries.

As an employer I'll follow all employment laws, but damn if there isn't a huge part of me that just wants to hire the person that is willing to work hard for their check. We have just as much of an employable problem in this country as an employment.

Purely anecdotal, but when my house was being built the sum doing the framing work had 3 Latinos and 2 white guys. I know nothing of their immigration status, but the Latinos were always the first to arrive, last to leave, and had zero drama. My wife, myself and my in-laws all noticed it independently as we'd be here at different times.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Immigrants = LPR holders? Not US Citizens though legal "Permanent Residents"? Trying to better understand your perspective.
If so, I would agree with your thoughts.

legal/illegal, documented/undocumented, it is all the same as it relates to my point. I am not suggesting illegal immigration is OK, just saying it is a symptom, not a cause. They come to a significant extent because Americans are unwilling to work these tough labor jobs. Setting aside some exploitative and illegal shops on the edges of the economy, the vast majority of employers try to hire legal help and have a darn hard time finding young able-bodied citizens willing to put in the effort in these more menial fields.

 

[Keeptrying]

I have a buddy who manages construction crew, and from his perspective, it is not immigrants "taking" jobs from citizens, it is able bodied citizens who are unwilling to work tough jobs that are left unfilled until immigrants apply for them that is where the real problem is - the one we are afraid to talk about. This nation was built by hard working immigrants -- I would gladly trade some of our unmotivated, entitled and lazy citizens for the motivated, hard working citizens of other countries.

Oh ya. I have people who I consider friends who entered this country illegally. I have an enormous amount of respect for someone who leaves their home to face the unknown to provide for their family.

As far as people not being willing to work I know it as well as anyone. The entitlement mentality, lack of work ethic, complete lack of math skills, and over estimation of their worth are chronic in the youth of America. Sad really. I remember when I was in school the guidance counselor refused to discuss options with you unless they involved a traditional University setting.

That does not change the fact that those jobs are staffed by illegal immigrants. And that those illegals are protected. It drives down wages and creates massive ethical concerns because they are afraid to report abuse.

This conversation has followed a path. Take away ammo and guns because poor people kill each other. Then take away my money because the poor people need it. Protect illegal immigration because Democrat voting block.

I find it interesting that people who come here with absolutely nothing, don't speak the language, and have suffered masssive issues with violence and corruption, are able to build wealth, bussinesses and lives. Impressive really, and begs the question as to why so many here are unable to provide for themselves.

 

[Doublecluck]

As an employer I'll follow all employment laws, but damn if there isn't a huge part of me that just wants to hire the person that is willing to work hard for their check. We have just as much of an employable problem in this country as an employment.

Purely anecdotal, but when my house was being built the sum doing the framing work had 3 Latinos and 2 white guys. I know nothing of their immigration status, but the Latinos were always the first to arrive, last to leave, and had zero drama. My wife, myself and my in-laws all noticed it independently as we'd be here at different times.

Old news, it’s easy to follow the “law” and hire whoever you want in many states.. I was VP of a construction company that had 50-60 employees. 3/4 were illegals “I suspect” great hard working people for the most part. Hell I was taught my trade by a guy named Jose who was a 3rd generation stone carver out of Guatemala. Great friend to this day. One day I asked him why he never taught his kids to speak Spanish, he replied “because they are Americans whetto” lot of respect for that guy. I signed off for his proof of employment so he could obtain citizenship.

Why do you think illegals are harder working than Americans? Obviously the guys that built this country were not lazy.. I got an idea.. Maybe, just maybe it had something to do with the unions that advocate paying people equally based on their position rather than their performance. Sadly that’s neither here nor there, unfortunately our laziness is ingrained in our culture, the children of illegals are usually just as lazy as your average American after just one generation..

 

[Irrelevant]

I have a buddy who manages construction crew, and from his perspective, it is not immigrants "taking" jobs from citizens, it is able bodied citizens who are unwilling to work tough jobs that are left unfilled until immigrants apply for them that is where the real problem is - the one we are afraid to talk about. This nation was built by hard working immigrants -- I would gladly trade some of our unmotivated, entitled and lazy citizens for the motivated, hard working citizens of other countries.

I'm with ya, I would also readily make that trade. I support people who work hard. I don't care what their immigration status is.

 

[dannyb278]

wow. this may have been the fastest "lets go off the rails quick" post ever, yet stayed civil. well done fellas.

 

[Doublecluck]

I have a buddy who manages construction crew, and from his perspective, it is not immigrants "taking" jobs from citizens, it is able bodied citizens who are unwilling to work tough jobs that are left unfilled until immigrants apply for them that is where the real problem is - the one we are afraid to talk about. This nation was built by hard working immigrants -- I would gladly trade some of our unmotivated, entitled and lazy citizens for the motivated, hard working citizens of other countries.

Tough jobs.. like framing, drywall, roofing, plumbing, electrical, cement work, tile, landscaping, irrigation, finish work, etc... jobs that pay people legal or illegal 15-40 bucks per hour.. I don’t know about in your neck of the woods, but Gallitan County is the fastest growing county in Montana, somehow the buildings are getting built, the lawns are getting mowed, the food is getting served.. and immigration law is being enforced. There is a demand for labor in many fields, but that forces companies to be competitive in pay and benefits to find people to fill the positions.. it benefits the employee.. In many cases people who are qualified for other jobs (people with political science degrees) actually take these positions because employers are willing to pay a reasonable wage and benefit to fill the menial position...

 

[Sytes]

Why do you think illegals are harder working than Americans? Obviously the guys that built this country were not lazy.. I got an idea.. Maybe, just maybe it had something to do with the unions that advocate paying people equally based on their position rather than their performance. Sadly that’s neither here nor there, unfortunately our laziness is ingrained in our culture, the children of illegals are usually just as lazy as your average American after just one generation..

I hold agreement regarding Unions. A *necessary* evil. I agree Unions are not about protecting and enhancing an effective work force, they are about seniority over performance/effectiveness... However, w/o "organized labor groups" the corporate card is held against the individual worker.

I disagree with your opinion why legal non immigrants and the criminal aliens hold a stereotype as hard-er workers. Their only objective is to make money for family in their country of citizenship whereas US Citizens have many objectives with respect to employment. Social, finances, pride (ego & self satisfaction), promotion, etc. I don't discount your opinion, simply hold a different perspective.

In discussions of the criminal aliens working our fields, I hold the opinion put select jailed criminals to work. Make them pay vs taxpayers. Incentive w/ reduced time. Have them walk out with a paycheck when released with potential for acquired skills... Of course this one paragraph is a far cry from the bluprint for such though... Then there is that gnarley beast, ACLU who will claim an inmate on work detail should have two 2 hour breaks, a 2 hour lunch break and no more than 2 hours labor... Meh, always fun to discuss. . Haha!

 

[jryoung]

Another relevant cog in the wheel of complexity is wage stagnation since the 1970's and the vast majority of consumers unable/unwilling to pay anything higher than the cheapest price. Many scoff at products made abroad, but don't follow that up with a willingness to pay for Made in America prices.

 

[plumber1969]

I hold agreement regarding Unions. A *necessary* evil. I agree Unions are not about protecting and enhancing an effective work force, they are about seniority over performance/effectiveness... However, w/o "organized labor groups" the corporate card is held against the individual worker.

I disagree with your opinion why legal non immigrants and the criminal aliens hold a stereotype as hard-er workers. Their only objective is to make money for family in their country of citizenship whereas US Citizens have many objectives with respect to employment. Social, finances, pride (ego & self satisfaction), promotion, etc. I don't discount your opinion, simply hold a different perspective.

In discussions of the criminal aliens working our fields, I hold the opinion put select jailed criminals to work. Make them pay vs taxpayers. Incentive w/ reduced time. Have them walk out with a paycheck when released with potential for acquired skills... Of course this one paragraph is a far cry from the bluprint for such though... Then there is that gnarley beast, ACLU who will claim an inmate on work detail should have two 2 hour breaks, a 2 hour lunch break and no more than 2 hours labor... Meh, always fun to discuss. . Haha!

Building trade unions here in the Southeast have ZERO seniority! You will keep a job based on what you did yesterday. The contractors can call for an individual by name off the bench and yet we continue to have a great relationship with our contractors. So much so that they wanted us to sign an 8 year contracting but we decided on 6. As far as putting criminals to work, you can't get them on ANY Federal project here in the Southeast and yet the Government is screaming that we do. The same Government is the one refusing to let them on their work sites. I sit on multiple state and federal workforce development boards as well as apprenticeship boards. It is a convoluted mess.

 

[LuketheDog]

I have a buddy who manages construction crew, and from his perspective, it is not immigrants "taking" jobs from citizens, it is able bodied citizens who are unwilling to work tough jobs that are left unfilled until immigrants apply for them that is where the real problem is - the one we are afraid to talk about. This nation was built by hard working immigrants -- I would gladly trade some of our unmotivated, entitled and lazy citizens for the motivated, hard working citizens of other countries.

I managed a construction crew, and I agree with much of what you say. There is one problem, and that is many of the immigrants may be hard workers but not skilled workers, and a lot goes into teaching proper techniques. A 1-for-1 immigration policy is a great idea though, I can think of numerous groups who I'd ship out on the first wave in exchange for people who truly want to contribute to society-most politicians, most of Hollywood, entitled college children, activists of any sort who merely protest and don't "activate", Al Sharpton, Boulder, the list goes on...

 

[Sytes]

Building trade unions here in the Southeast have ZERO seniority! You will keep a job based on what you did yesterday. The contractors can call for an individual by name off the bench and yet we continue to have a great relationship with our contractors. So much so that they wanted us to sign an 8 year contracting but we decided on 6. As far as putting criminals to work, you can't get them on ANY Federal project here in the Southeast and yet the Government is screaming that we do. The same Government is the one refusing to let them on their work sites. I sit on multiple state and federal workforce development boards as well as apprenticeship boards. It is a convoluted mess.

Should I rephrase my comment as, the stereotype of Unions is seniority over performance ratings and retention? I am in a Union myself. One of the largest federal unions. It is pure seniority based. Good on you for changing that stereotype and making it performance based. In our union and those I am familiar with due to other federal components, if there was a less seniority based person offered a position as you shared, grievances would be filed in a heartbeat.
That is the biggest beef I have with unions - if you and your union base have figured a way to undermine the seniority based methodology of Unions, I am impressed and based on your stated qualifications looks like you are real in your statement. Cheers to ya.

 

[MT_Chad]

Building trade unions here in the Southeast have ZERO seniority! You will keep a job based on what you did yesterday. The contractors can call for an individual by name off the bench and yet we continue to have a great relationship with our contractors. So much so that they wanted us to sign an 8 year contracting but we decided on 6. As far as putting criminals to work, you can't get them on ANY Federal project here in the Southeast and yet the Government is screaming that we do. The same Government is the one refusing to let them on their work sites. I sit on multiple state and federal workforce development boards as well as apprenticeship boards. It is a convoluted mess.

Construction trade unions around the country operate in this fashion, they are one instance where I think unions work well. If the contractor you work for doesn't have any work you go back to the hall and get picked up by another company. This works well in that your benefits are through the union so you are not constantly changing retirement, health care, etc.
When I was in college I spent several summers working as an intern doing construction engineering and managed several crews that were almost all Mexican. They were on work visas and sent home in the winter. Very skilled, worked hard, did not talk back to the young guy calling the shots. They were great, on the other hand the locals we had were terrible, totally useless and had no work ethic. I labored on a farm as a kid and worked as a construction grunt before I started taking internships, I frequently had to jump in and take over for the useless locals we had hoping the union rep didn't show up. the locals were total morons who questioned everything I said just because I was barely of legal drinking age, but they were the ones who couldn't even read plans.
This is a capitalist society right? Work hard, earn the job. It's not immigrants taking them all, its lazy Americans who are unwilling to work. Illegals are a different story I'm not even going to start into right now.

 

[BuzzH]

Should I rephrase my comment as, the stereotype of Unions is seniority over performance ratings and retention? I am in a Union myself. One of the largest federal unions. It is pure seniority based. Good on you for changing that stereotype and making it performance based. In our union and those I am familiar with due to other federal components, if there was a less seniority based person offered a position as you shared, grievances would be filed in a heartbeat.
That is the biggest beef I have with unions - if you and your union base have figured a way to undermine the seniority based methodology of Unions, I am impressed and based on your stated qualifications looks like you are real in your statement. Cheers to ya.

I'm pretty involved in a large Federal union, and positions must be applied for...we aren't offered positions based on seniority or anything other than qualifications via the application process. I can think of only one time where seniority was a deciding factor in a position based decision and we entered into an MOU with Management in that particular case. Also fair to note, seniority was not even used in that case, as the impacted employees worked it out amongst themselves.

Plus under 5 USC 7106, hiring of employees and filling positions, is a Management right...and also defined again in our Master Agreement. Even if a less senior employee was given a position, which happens, I'd have no legal or contractual grievance to file.

I've never filed a grievance on anything to do with seniority...and I've been at it a while.

 

[MTGomer]

I’ve never seen the hard working illegals as a big issue either.

On the Crow, the sugar beet farmers hire migrant workers ( legal/illegal I have no idea) because despite a 65% unemployment rate, they can’t get any locals to work. Same with the contractors I’ve worked with down there. TERO employees won’t show up from just down the road for $35/hr, but Juan and Pedro come from Chihuahaua and stick it out 7 days a week for 6 months.

In the Bakken, Mexicans were doing all kinds of work for $18/ hr or so that no one else would do, installing utilities, painting, labor on pipelines etc. working 7 days a week. The rest of us want $100k+ and half the year off, and free housing and meals. The Mexicans sleep in a van by the river, cook rice and beans and once a week make a Fiesta that they’ll share with everybody and have a smile on their face the whole time.
Mexican immigrants (I don’t know and didn’t ask their legal status) are the hardest working people, hands down, I’ve ever been around.

 

[Sytes]

Appreciate the reasonable discussion, Buzz.
Our experience via CBA's, the areas where seniority and frequent grievances occur off the cuff... Based on those who place their names within:

Training opportunities (i.e. tactical, instructor training, FI/LLI, FTO's)
Scheduling (i.e. annual bid process, volunteer for after bid vacancy)
TDY selection. (i.e. volunteer or inverse seniority if no volunteers)
Work units (i.e. special unit operations)
Collateral positions (i.e. Intelligence Officer)
Relocation (i.e. move to other location, excluding hardships)

Interesting enough, Union seniority actually successfully argued seniority superceeds disability assignment relocation, US Airways.

The exception: Management presents documented mission needs that require selection from bargaining unit employees outside CBA's seniority requirement. If they do present such needs, that is grilled and often found lacking. Usually it is a Management official attempt to circumvent the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

I'm within the middle area and not subject to inverse seniority forced action though have successfully argued for MOU's to protect the low seniority from what many consider abuse of those employees and their families.

Within our union, it is pretty much based on seniority. And this does not go towards the discipline aspects. Try to remove a bargaining unit employee and management better have a laundry list longer than a roll of t-paper. As said, Unions are necessary though seniority certainly trumps employee performance. Based on conversations with our counterpart Fed union employees, it is reasonably the same setting.

 

[Sytes]

It's amazing how much our $ supports their families in their home country. It's not returned to American commerce. That is one of my problem with illegals none the less illegal is just that, criminal.
They harm those who've legally complied with our immigration laws as most all countries hold.

Hard work: The stereotype certainly appears frequent. Work ethics for many legal non immigrants and criminal aliensvand I would share it is beyond the Mexican hard work, imo. india, Asian, Middle Eastern, South American, Mexico and adjacent countries, they are about making the American dollar thus they are not interested in the usual work drama Americans create and deal with... We live and pay for our lives. Our money is an investment within our country. Theirs is not. No doubt they are the hard workers.

 

[BuzzH]

Appreciate the reasonable discussion, Buzz.
Our experience via CBA's, the areas where seniority and frequent grievances occur off the cuff... Based on those who place their names within:

Training opportunities (i.e. tactical, instructor training, FI/LLI, FTO's)
Scheduling (i.e. annual bid process, volunteer for after bid vacancy)
TDY selection. (i.e. volunteer or inverse seniority if no volunteers)
Work units (i.e. special unit operations)
Collateral positions (i.e. Intelligence Officer)
Relocation (i.e. move to other location, excluding hardships)

Interesting enough, Union seniority actually successfully argued seniority superceeds disability assignment relocation, US Airways.

The exception: Management presents documented mission needs that require selection from bargaining unit employees outside CBA's seniority requirement. If they do present such needs, that is grilled and often found lacking. Usually it is a Management official attempt to circumvent the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

I'm within the middle area and not subject to inverse seniority forced action though have successfully argued for MOU's to protect the low seniority from what many consider abuse of those employees and their families.

Within our union, it is pretty much based on seniority. And this does not go towards the discipline aspects. Try to remove a bargaining unit employee and management better have a laundry list longer than a roll of t-paper. As said, Unions are necessary though seniority certainly trumps employee performance. Based on conversations with our counterpart Fed union employees, it is reasonably the same setting.

I'd like to see a copy of your contract/CBA...its obviously sounds much different than ours. That's not surprising though, as it sounds like you have many different issues that wouldn't apply to us. Seniority doesn't mean much for us, but again, we don't have the same situations that you all have in regard to scheduling, in particular.

Cant even paint Federal Unions with a broad brush it appears...

I'm assuming TSA, and if that's the case, seniority is pretty important, though your CBA does leave some discretion to Management. I can definitely see where grievances would be pretty common regarding seniority...way, way different than our MA.

I can also tell your CBA is rather new, our MA is a lot more "polished"...if you will.

Glad I work in the woods and don't have to place a bid for leave...holy chit, that would mess with hunting plans.

 

[schmalts]

I could care less if they give me a background check for ammo.... In Minnesota, at least my experience, it takes a whole 5 minutes. What would suck is a limit on shotgun shells, especially when I buy 500 at a time for the spring conservation hunt. If it was a limit for centerfire rifles I could care less, I have no application for 500 rounds but maybe some of you competition guys might....

So you care about what would affect you, but not what would effect another. That isn't collective caring and it will bite you in the ass sooner or later.

 

[schmalts]

Agreed. There aren’t many locals out fighting for the ag jobs many of the illegals do.

Problem is they are not stopping at AG jobs. Roofing, sheetrock, paving, tile and carpet, all used to be decent paying jobs. Now scab labor from illegals has destroyed the wages in comparison to 20 years ago. I find it amusing that the same crowd that defends illegal immigration scream for higher minimum wages. Maybe a supply and demand class is needed??