ATVs and elk

[Muledeer4me]

http://www.libertymatters.org/ahri-wildlands-rpt.htm


"When radical environmentalist Dave Foreman first described his vision of a "rewilded" America in his book Confessions of an Eco Warrior, only a few grasped the radical implications of his dream. Others dismissed his vision as lunacy, aware that Foreman, co-founder of Earth First!, had advocated tree-spiking, and had been convicted of conspiracy to blow up power transmission lines. But today, Foreman's dream, known as the Wildlands Project, has transmuted to an Orwellian nightmare supported by innumerable UN agencies, embraced by the United Nations Environmental Programme (UNEP), UNESCO, the Sierra Club, The Nature Conservancy, the U.S. Department of Interior, and the EPA. The Sierra Club recently elected Dave Foreman to its Board of Directors, and that organization has now embraced the Wildlands Project as its major endeavor. It is being unleashed relentlessly across America."

 

[Elkhunter]

However, I think that theres been plenty of studies done that all come to the conclusion that roads and access arent good for elk.

Well one thing for sure is I couldn't agree with you more about roads and access arent good for elk or any game animal for that matter.

Just so you understand, I was not looking or trying to rip apart the study, but trying to get a few more answers or ideas.

 

[Elkhunter]

MD4me, I for one am glad to see the study including all forms of activity from hikers and horses to ATVs. To me that is a plus and no one is singled out.

 

[Muledeer4me]

This is some statements for the wildlands project.
Sound good on the


"Our Method
We seek partnerships with grassroots and national conservation organizations, government agencies, indigenous peoples, private landowners, and with naturalists, scientists, and conservationists across the continent to create networks of wildlands from Central America to Alaska and from Nova Scotia to California. We seek to heal nature’s wounds by designing and creating wildlands networks and by restoring critical species and ecological processes to the land.

The wildlands networks will:

Support the repatriation of top predators where they have been extirpated from present and future wilderness areas and national parks;
Establish large areas of wild habitat where plants and animals are unrestrained, where native species thrive, and where nature, not technology, determines their evolutionary fate;
Establish extensive linkages between large natural areas to ensure the continuation of migrations and other movements vital for the survival of healthy populations;
Enable the recovery of natural processes such as fire.
We will implement these networks by:

Supporting the designation of new conservation areas and improving the management of existing public lands;
Campaigning both for the removal of public subsidies that maintain abusive land-use practices and for positive incentives that encourage responsible land management;
Assisting land owners and land trusts in the voluntary protection of critical parcels of private land;
Cooperating with transportation agencies to help remove or mitigate barriers to wildlife movement;
Working with planners at all levels to create a balance between the needs of nature and human society;
Promoting the restoration of disturbed lands and waters until that time when nature has recovered and can manage itself.
Inspiring the people of North America to care for their home—for its own sake and for the sake of those yet to come."

 

[Muledeer4me]

http://www.citizenreviewonline.org/april_2002/wildlands_project_history.htm


"The project calls on the establishment of systems of core wilderness areas where human activity is prohibited"

I would like to challange everyone that uses the outdoors in any way to read over this stuff .
Go do your own reserch and decide if it's the way YOU want to see this country go.
Go find out how many things Ithaca,Elkgunner,Buzz post about that relate back to these org. and there goal.
Anti-public lands grazzing/anti-multipal use/anti-logging.
Now we see support of studys that could limit the use of horses ???????
Smells like the worst kind of treehugger to me.

 

[ELKCHSR]

That was almost way to much reading...You need to find some cut and pastes that are a little shorter so that people will stay interested on reading your entire posts....

I have done my own studies, albeit they were not paid by any fancy grants and I didn't bother writing down that which I have learned from my travels....
Elk as a general rule, if given the chance, don't seem to like much of any human interaction; of course they as with all nature have their own exceptions to any rules that we may come up with. But as a general rule, they like to be a mile and a half to two miles away from roads that people can drive on and park for a walk; my guess for this distance is that is about as far as most that walks ends up. Most people won't travel much farther than that and most people definitely aren’t really hunting when they are back in that far. I know that I have not really had much experience at elk hunting, but have dropped the last five elk with in two hours of leaving camp or vehicle; these have also coincided with the one and a half to two mile rule that I stated above...
I know that some of you will be able to cut and paste all sorts of stuff to the contrary of what I have stated above to the opposite. If you feel the need of this, "Carefully" re-read the area that I stated there were exceptions to every rule we have come up with in nature...

 

[Muledeer4me]

"MD4me, I for one am glad to see the study including all forms of activity from hikers and horses to ATVs. To me that is a plus and no one is singled out."


Elkhunter,you got that right,it will be fair to all of us as the goal is to keep us all out.

 

[1_pointer]

TB- There is now way that I know of to conduct a study without personal bias. This can come from where you conduct the study, to the data you collect.

MD- If closing off certain areas to specific types of travel is better for the long term health of the elk herd, would you support it? I'm thinking this study was nothing but good for elk.

From the posted statement, I don't believe that all elk fled from at those distance and I'd guess those are averages. As stated above, I think this project was persued to quantitatively know the impact to animals. Don't we want our resource issues to be managed using the best science available?? I know I do and fully appreciate the study.

 

[JoseCuervo]

md,

Why do you equate the US Forest Service with Dan Foreman and your "rewild" project?

Should we equate you with Sonny Barger and his Motorcyle Club?

 

[Bullhound]

> Elk began moving when ATVs were as far away as 2,000 yards but tolerated hikers to within 500, horseback riders within 800 and bicyclists within 1,300 yards. Elk run from ATVs but tend to walk away from hikers unless startled at close range.
> Mule deer move little when approached by all four types of recreational users but seem to leave foraging areas and move into deeper cover.
> Elk are far more disturbed by horseback riders than previously believed, and once they detect them are nearly as spooked by bikes as ATVs.


Skiddish animals I guess. Those are some REAL distances for a flight response. Kinda funny how the numbers indicate the horses should be kept out of the woods........had planned to use some this year

 

[Muledeer4me]

"md,

Why do you equate the US Forest Service with Dan Foreman and your "rewild" project?"




Elkgunner,are you saying this project isn't targeting all aspect's of government?
Or are you saying this isn't something that is going on right now?
Are you saying we shouldn't be concerned over a project so large?

Are you saying that forest service isnt under presure from invironmental groups that are working towards this Wildlands goal?


"D. Regional and Ecosystem Projects

The Wildlands Project has over 35 known activist groups now working on implementing the project at the regional and ecosystem level. Some of the known members include: Alliance for the Wild Rockies (MT); Biodiversity Legal Foundation (CO); California Wilderness Coalition (CA); Coast Range Association (OR); Environmental Ethics (TX); Finger Lakes Wild! (NY); Forest Guardians (NM); Forest Reform Network (TX); Friends of the Bow [renamed Biodiversity Associates] (WY); Gila Watch (NM); Great Old Broads For Wilderness (UT); Greater Ecosystems Alliance (WA); Heartwood (IN); Hells Canyon Preservation Council (OR); Idaho Conservation League (ID); Klamath Forest Alliance (CA); Lighthawk (NM); Native Forest Council (OR); Oregon Natural Desert Association (OR); Oregon Natural Resources Council (OR); Planet Drum Foundation (CA); Preserve Appalachian Wilderness (VT); Public Lands Action Network (NM); Rest The West (OR); Save America's Forests (Wash. D.C.); Siskiyou Regional Education Project (OR); Southeast Alaska Conservation Council (AK); Sky Island Alliance (AZ); Society for Ecological Restoration (WI); Sororan Arthropod Studies Inc. (AZ); Superior Wilderness Action Network (WI); Thatshenshini Wild (British Columbia, Canada); Virginians for Wilderness (VA); Predator Damage Review (AZ); and The Xerces Society (OR).

Member groups, first recruit other activists, professional ecologists, sympathetic agency personnel and others to assist in the development of proposals for the Wilderness Recovery Network at the regional and ecosystem level. Trust groups such as Nature Conservancy are plugged into the proposals so that when gaps are identified within their reserve network, these areas can become priorities for land acquisition."


My question to elkgunner and Ithaca is just where do you guy's fit into this?

("Member groups, first recruit other activists, professional ecologists, sympathetic agency personnel and others to assist in the development ")


"Should we equate you with Sonny Barger and his Motorcyle Club?"

ROFLMAO--Thats me LOL grandma on an ATV hanging with the motorcycle gang.

 

[1_pointer]

FWIW, I don't think this study is calling for the banning of any/all of these activities anywhere. What I see is information that can be included into travel plans that can take into account impacts to elk.

 

[Oak]

Are you saying that forest service isnt under presure from invironmental groups that are working towards this Wildlands goal?

I'd say what the study shows is that the forest service is working towards science-based management, rather than good-'ol-boys management. Sometimes science-based is hard to swallow for the good 'ol boys who want to do things the way Grandpa did them (no disrespect to Grandpa, he didn't know better).

Oak

 

[Rogue 6]

I have two hunting buddies who are Biologist, one works for Oregon F&G the other teaches at the local University. They both get flamming pissed whenever some new study comes out. The Forest Service and BLM have two very different camps. One to shut out all public lands and the other to use sustained management. Most studies begin with the outcome to be achieved, then data is collected to prove the point. We all know that data should first be collected in an unbiased manor then a conclusion can be made. Until I know the background of the scientist I take any study or paper with a 20 lbs salt lick.

 

[Rogue 6]

I don't own horses or even a quad. I use my boots and a pack board. If this is a set up, in a year or to the Sierra Club or ELF will quote this study in one of their many lawsuits to shut down more of our forest.

 

[ELKCHSR]

LMAO!!!Rogue 6 !!!!
You are exactly right, there are those on this board that can't see any thing past what they can cut and paste, heaven forbid they get off their self rightous butts and actually go see for themselves what the truth actually is...I suppose it is easier to sit on the laurels of others while running self proclaimed cudo's on themselves for what they can dig off the internet to prove their points, then use brow beating, grade school play ground tactics ("Tack Ticks" for Buzz) and trying to over talk any one else that has opposing positions... It all shows where the true ignorance lies to any that read this stuff down here.

 

[beardown]

Should'nt this be in SI ?

 

[RockyDog]

Elkchsr, you have an amazingly cocky mouth for the little sawed-off, no-shoulder, muppet-looking thing that you are.

If Buzzh is getting to you, go play sxul positions with some elk carcasses again.

 

[Nut]

This has been a decent debate until recently. Keep it the way it had been going before, I was enjoying it then.

 

[ELKCHSR]

My goodness RD...
A little testy are we?
I don't see where Buzz could possibly be getting to me..I haven't changed my style and posting since I first got on the board, well maybe I'm a little more articulate, and a little more to the point with out rambling, and I can still do it with out name calling and gutter spewling...

[ 04-09-2004, 20:20: Message edited by: ELKCHSR ]