Arrows flight is funny...

[JustEppic]

Hey guys, so I am starting to get better... but with that comes my OCD and ADHD... which means i am starting to notice all the weird stuff.
I started researching because of some of that weird stuff and came up with this:
My arrow is a Bloodline 400 7.7 at 29.5 inches (I may have measured wrong, i measured from the nock to where I screw in the broadhead. it is 28 1/4 without the nock).
I put this info into Archers Advantage (I haven't purchased that software yet, not sure if I should) and it says the Spine is too weak.

Here is the deal.
My shots are spread out at 20 yards, six inch spread. They are tight at 30 yards, at 35 they are about the same as the 20 yard spread again. At 40 yards I notice the weird shit. My arrows ass end will lift up, sometimes it will dip. If it was consistent I would be able to figure out what to do, but I literally had an arrow SLAP my target, it hit the target at such a severe angle, it just fell down. NOW, I know wind plays a factor, but nothing can play that big a factor, so it has to be the arrow. By wind, I mean I had a tail wind, for example, the wind was heading south, and I was shooting South by South East. If the spine is weak, would it cause the arrow flight path to do such a strange thing at distance? (picture a paper airplane that pitches almost straight up and loses all forward momentum, just not every time). Other times it will hit the target dead on at 60 yards with full penetration. I am afraid to shoot past 30 yards because of the inconsistency I am seeing.

My draw weight is now near 60 pounds, I haven't had a full test on it, I just counted out twists to see where I am at as I built up my back strength. My anchor point is good, my grip is light, I do know that I tremble a little due to spasms, but that is left/right and wouldn't affect an arrow in such a way.
Does anyone use Archers Advantage? Could they help me find a better arrow? My Bow is the Bear Cruzer 2, Draw Length is 29 inches. I am going to buy the 125 GR Thunderhead by NAP for my Broadhead, I use a TruFire Hardcore Buckle Foldback Release. Is the software of value, that I should buy it myself? Thanks everyone.

 

[MThuntr]

spine is too weak. You're shooting a noodle that goes back and forth. There must be a sweetspot at 30 yards.

 

[JustEppic]

spine is too weak. You're shooting a noodle that goes back and forth. There must be a sweetspot at 30 yards.

Thank you, I thought so, and the software agreed with that. So I should either get the software and find the right one, or have someone who owns the software do it for me? lol

 

[JLS]

I'd just buy a dozen 340 spine arrows.

 

[MThuntr]

Thank you, I thought so, and the software agreed with that. So I should either get the software and find the right one, or have someone who owns the software do it for me? lol

Make a phone call the your prefered arrow company. Talk to them about your bow and wants. They'll likely tell you (depending on the brand) to go with a 300-340 spine. The better alternative is to take your bow to a proshop and have them cut the arrow to your bow and draw length.

 

[dgc1963]

Make a phone call the your prefered arrow company. Talk to them about your bow and wants. They'll likely tell you (depending on the brand) to go with a 300-340 spine. The better alternative is to take your bow to a proshop and have them cut the arrow to your bow and draw length.

I agree to go to a good shop

 

[JustEppic]

Yeah, the only shop near me, is the dipshit that gave me these arrows, he also is the same guy who put the peepsite in that keeps moving around... im not gonna say where he is, but if you see where I live, you will see there aren't many around me. lol...so dont go there.
I will head towards a bigger town and find someone, maybe Wenatchee has someone. Everything I am seeing is saying the same thing so at least im not an idiot, 340-350... I just didnt really know what the numbers meant, and why a lower number would be "stronger" than 400 but... you guys are smarter than I am, and you agree with it, so it has to be right, so I appreciate it so much! I will start calling around and find someone who can put me on an arrow. I am kind of liking these carbon express arrows I am looking at... I know that NAP offers disabled veterans a discount, but I dont know if they sell arrows, and i would rather be there in person anyway.

 

[JustEppic]

well...I AM an idiot, just...not THAT idiot. LOL

 

[MThuntr]

Archery can be tricky with many nuances. I have no idea what I'm doing half the time. Make friends with a new shop. Ask a ton of questions.

I think you may be able to access some veteran's discounts through ExpertVoice or Guidefitter to help with the costs. Definitely visit a new shop especially to fix the peep. That guy at your old shop should have known better.

 

[2rocky]

Thank you, I thought so, and the software agreed with that. So I should either get the software and find the right one, or have someone who owns the software do it for me? lol

Shaft Selector - Hunting - Easton Archery

FMJ & Carbon Arrow Size Selection Bow Type*Compound Bow (301-340 FPS)Recurve BowLong Bow Long Bow Poundage*38-4344-4950-5556-6162-6768-7374-7980-85 Arrow Length (100 Grain Point)*23″24″25″26″27″28″29″30″31″32″ Bow Poundage*22-2627-3132-3637-4142-4647-5152-5657-6162-6667-7273-7879-84Important! –...

eastonarchery.com

 

[JustEppic]

it was password protected. I am sending you a dm, you can tell me what it said.

 

[JustEppic]

I just called a shop in Seattle and got the most helpful guy ever... he told me to try tuning my bow before anything... he said my 125 gr heads might just be to heavy, spend $5 and try the 100's first. THEN, tune the bow, if i struggle with that, he would gladly help me tune it...

 

[JLS]

It certainly could be a tuning issue. If you're shooting 125s though, I really think you are underspined. Poor tuning would exacerbate this.

 

[2rocky]

.300 spine with 125's and .340 spine with 100 gr. heads.

 

[JustEppic]

wow, @2rocky must have just rolled his eyes so hard lol... sorry. THAT was the best link ever. IT just in fact told me everything we all said, in the most simple statement ever. My Carbon arrow, is in fact the wrong spine size, and now that my poundage is up, it is starting to show... it is probably as you are saying @JLS exacerbated by the poor tuning (which I am learning about) and then mixed with my poor form (getting better) and my spasms... lol... no wonder... a six inch spread is looking pretty damn good all of a sudden.
SO. I will get a new set of arrows, I will check Guidefitters and see who I have the best deal with, or call Easton and see what they got for me, looking at those Axis Match Grade... Anyway... this is clear as mud now!
I really appreciate that I can just be honestly stupid and you guys go...ok dumbass... lets go over here and smack you real quick...you better? ok... lol

 

[bullbugle307]

Here's my advice. Not saying this is gospel as I'm sure other more knowledgeable archers do it differently. I'm a simpleton in some ways, and this has worked very well for me.

Once you get your new arrows that are properly spined, AND your shooting tight groups, then tune your bow. I see a lot of guys do a lot of weird stuff with tuning that makes no sense to me as a starting point (like adding twists to the string above or below the nock point). Contrary to people who start with paper tuning, I go right to broadhead tuning. I've never had to do anything other than adjust the rest left to right and nock point up and down to broadhead tune the five or six bows I've tuned (all pses), and my fixed blades hit exactly where my field points do even out to 60 yds. Start at 10 yds, get your broadheads hitting exactly where your field points do left to right, then adjust your nock point up and down until they hit in exactly the same spot. Move out 10 yard increments at a time repeating the process. I like to adjust the rest first, as having a left to right tuning issue will usually cause an up and down issue since there's an added inefficiency in the arrow flight with the broadhead when it's off tune in a left right manner. Dont bother messing with your sight or pins other than to get them reasonably close to help you shoot good groups as every move of the rest or nock point will change you point of impact. Once they're hitting in exactly the same place even out at longer ranges, I shoot paper to make sure I have a perfect tear (after broadhead tuning, I have always had perfect tears). Then adjust your sight and pins once your done messing with the knock point and rest. This method is dependent on having good form (no torque) and being able to shoot good groups at range, keep that in mind.

I don't like to start with paper because it's always been more efficient to me to go straight to broadhead tuning, but I will admit others probably have better luck with paper first.

I realize many will think this is a caveman approach (it probably is), but it's worked well for me, and its very simple, which is good for me and someone new to tuning. If what I described doesn't work, I'd take it to a good bow shop, they'll probably paper tune it. But I would still immediately check broadheads vs field points after they tune it, because that is what matters most to me for hunting.

Finally once it's dialed, and I mean dialed, mark everything. Mark the left right placement of your rest. Mark the left right placement of your sight. This way you'll know immediately when you pick up your bow on a hunt if somethings been knocked off. And you'll know where it needs to be.

 

[dcestnik]

for arrows measure carbon to carbon. actually not too bad assuming youre not running brass inserts and if you cant get it tuned could drop to 100gr heads and/or cut the arrow down a little from there to stiffen it up. if you plan on going up from 60# go up in spine but you and your bow just might need a tune. even with properly spined arrows and good form a simple centershot of the rest usually isnt enough. John Dudleys school of nock is pretty good to learn form but for the bow fix high/low first and then left/right

 

[elkhnter]

Stick a 100 grain field point on your arrow and see if it will paper tune. If it will bullet hole, shoot 100 grain THs. If it won’t go pick up a 340 spine arrow and shoot through paper with both weights of points.
This ain’t rocket science! Don’t need a program to tell you arrow spine. Most arrow company catalogs will get you very close, the rest is up to you.

 

[dcestnik]

Also for tuning everyone has their own process so there's no rule on whats right or wrong since all the different methods get to the same spot. For me at least I'll run through these steps.

Verify draw stops on the cams are hitting at the same exact time or maybe the top just before. Verify the rest position so the arrow perpendicular or maybe a hair nock high and running straight through the berger hole. Centershot is whatever the manufacturer recommends but usually can just eyeball what puts an arrow inline with the string and riser or limb bolts.

Some people will start by shooting paper but I've found it to be just a ballpark start so will just skip it. From there I'll shoot bareshafts and fletched arrows in the garage at maybe 6 yards. If i can move the rest a little to get them to not flare out then good but if its too much it might require a bowpress/trip to archery shop to tune. After that ill go outside on a calm day and barshaft tune at 10-20y then walkback tunr by shooting a group at 10y then on the same target using the same pin walk back to 40y and shoot a group to fine tune rest left/right.

After all that figure bow is tuned and shoot broadheads to verify but cant recall ever having to change anything from that point. When shooting broadheads make sure to test alignment as I've seen folks get frustrated trying to tune broadheads just to find out they have a wobble or a ton of surface area.

 

[Ajax2744]

On a 60lbs 29" bow that ibos at 310ish fps I can pretty much guarantee it's not your arrows. A 400 spine would actually be pretty close for your setup. It might be weak but not super weak. I can get .400s to tune at my 30.5" draw length on a 70lbs bow that is 345ibo.

A weak spine won't show as a tail low which sounds like what you are describing. they will show tail left (for a right handed shooter).

With a severe tail low it could be as simple as your vane hitting your rest or sight. It could be your nocking point is too low or your rest too high. It could be grip, which is probably not the cause but could have an effect.
Or it could be your cam timing is out of sync. With a tail low your bottom cam will be hitting the stops first so you would need to advance your top cam or retard your bottom cam to get the cams in sync. When they are in sync it will allow for level nock travel and straight arrow flight.

I'd nock an arrow and look to see if it is running through the Berger hole and is perpendicular at 90° to the string. If not then adjust your nocking point and arrow rest accordingly. If that is fine then I would draw and have a friend watch both draw stops. If top and bottom are not hitting at the same time then it will need to be returned and cams synced. If those two things are good the spray your bow and sight and rest with foot powder and shoot. If a vane is hitting you will be able to see. Or you can put lipstick on the edge of the vanes and accomplish the same things. If all this checks out then I'd mess with arrows. But honestly I can almost guarantee one of those three things is the issue.

And last, your peep is moving and you are probably having tuning issues because bear and most bow companies, especially the entry level bows, do not have that good of strings. They will twist and stretch ans your bow will come out of sync until the string settles. If you have never had your bow retuned after you bought it and shot it a bunch then your strings have definitely stretched and are probably the cause of your issues.