Are we haggling over the wrong things?

Yes. We are fighting over the scraps. We can have a healthier planet and fewer humans would help. However, not all humans are equally destroying the planet. The amount of resources used (and wasted) by the avg US citizen is hundreds of times higher than most people in third world countries. But the US has some of the tightest environmental restrictions on the planet - we are already doing what the article is talking about, namely, keeping things on an unsustainably resource-intensive path while hiding the larger issues...kind of like sweeping the dirt under the rug.
 
And we don't yet know the effect of Covid 19/Vax on birth rates.
 
longbow51 said:
Excellent article. The authors will likely be pilloried though, or sacrificed at the altar of climate change. Big business is involved now.

John Dutton's take:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1597955173519093760
Click to expand...
When I watched Yellowstone on Sunday I replayed that scene twice. Kind of sums it up rather well doesn’t it?

Kind of like getting our oil from countries with far less stringent environmental laws…things that make you go hmmm
 
longbow51 said:
Excellent article. The authors will likely be pilloried though, or sacrificed at the altar of climate change. Big business is involved now.

John Dutton's take:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1597955173519093760
Click to expand...

Not sure exactly sure if the tweet was supposed to be supporting evidence to your comment about getting pilloried, but the video in the tweet is making more or less the same point as the article: there are no free lunches.

The dude who posted the tweet is making a considerably less thoughtful, and nuanced point, as evidenced by his use of the term "hypocrisy". I always read the hypocrisy police and saying "less not actually discuss this, and just ignore these other people's ideas and listen to me". His followup tweet has another beauty with "conserving our land and way of life". I read variations on "preserving our way of life" as code for "do nothing meaningful, and just carry on".

Just my take, anyway. 🤷‍♂️
 
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CycleFishHunt said:
Not sure exactly sure if the tweet was supposed to be supporting evidence to your comment about getting pilloried, but the video in the tweet is making more or less the same point as the article: there are no free lunches.

The dude who posted to the tweet is making a considerably less thoughtful, and nuanced point, as evidenced by his use of the term "hypocrisy". I always read the hypocrisy police and saying "less not actually discuss this, and just ignore these other people's ideas and listen to me". His followup tweet has another beauty with "conserving our land and way of life". I read variations on "preserving our way of life" as code for "do nothing meaningful, and just carry on".

Just my take, anyway. 🤷‍♂️
Click to expand...
We are currently in a state where honest discussion is rarely acceptable; witness anyone who warned of dangers from covid vax, or that switching to batteries presents a whole new set of environmental problems.

No real systems analysis going on.
 
Big Fin said:
I read that article on Saturday while in the middle of a "metropolis in denial;" that being Vegas and its rapid race to deplete all useable water before the next person might grab some of it. After reading that article, I told my wife, "It's nice to know I'm not the only person resolved to the idea that homo sapiens will breed themselves out of a habitable landscape and someday those landscapes will again be reclaimed by the more resilient and less arrogant species of the planet."

She looked at me as if I have too much time to think about things. Then realizing I have hardly any spare time and concerned of my mental well being, she Googled "Psychologists Near Me."

All the climate issues, all the habitat issues, all the (insert here) are heavily (mostly) impacted by the denial of humans that we are subject to the same habitat constraints of every other species on this planet. We cannot continue to breed and populate to the Nth degree and think the planet can sustain. We can't and the planet can't.

And as such, we will have more wars, religious arguments, more diseases, and other ancillary activities trying to justify/claim the share of resources and habitat we feel we are owed/deserve. It is the greatest example of "Tragedy of the Commons" that our planet ever has experienced

It's not just humans and governments that are in denial. It is also our lazy media. Everyone wants to make it about the changing climate without any connection to the fact that too many people with too many demands is what changes the climate; cause v. effect. It's far easier, lazier, and safer to talk about abstract ideas of climate change. Heaven forbid we talk about issues causing climates to change, such as having ten kids, coming to the rescue of every country that has overpopulated the carrying capacity of their land, trying to grow cities in deserts, fishing the oceans to the last minnow, and on and on and on.

I know, I've lost my marbles. Excuse me while I go look for those marbles.

Coming soon to the Fresh Tracks merch store - Men's T-shirts, "Save the planet; keep your dick in your pants."
Click to expand...
Sorry, I won't stop breeding. But hey, I'm snipped so I am just going through the motions so I will leave saving the planet to the rest of you guys who haven't taken one for the team. On a serious note I've said it many times that until we get politicians and voters on board to reverse course on social policies nothing will change. And by that I mean you should pay more taxes when you have more kids, not the opposite. When it gets to the point where having more kids means you pay for every cost they incur maybe people will slow down. A good example is NO way a retired couple that never had kids should be paying what they do in some states for school tax. Health care should be no different, if you have more kids, your family plan should go up. They are your kids, pay for them yourself. I understand why things were structured they way they are but that old argument is well, old. We are overpopulated.
 
Reminds me of a conversation I had, long ago, driving to a work site with a woman who had 2 kids, about world resources, and whether we should have kids (me, recently married, and my close friend, ultimately the Godmother of our daughter (and though she went to Stanford, she pointed out she wasn't a fairy Godmother; couldn't even make that joke now).

She said, are you kidding? People having this much thought should have 10 kids. It's the ones who give it no thought who should have none.

For the record, we had one, the Godmother none.

But if productive parents stop having children, exactly what problem does that solve?

Who will solve the problems?
 
schmalts said:
Sorry, I won't stop breeding. But hey, I'm snipped so I am just going through the motions so I will leave saving the planet to the rest of you guys who haven't taken one for the team. On a serious note I've said it many times that until we get politicians and voters on board to reverse course on social policies nothing will change. And by that I mean you should pay more taxes when you have more kids, not the opposite. When it gets to the point where having more kids means you pay for every cost they incur maybe people will slow down. A good example is NO way a retired couple that never had kids should be paying what they do in some states for school tax. Health care should be no different, if you have more kids, your family plan should go up. They are your kids, pay for them yourself. I understand why things were structured they way they are but that old argument is well, old. We are overpopulated.
Click to expand...
No way most people will slow down. The ultimate end point of your suggestion, which I do agree with overall, would be kids starving and dying which no one wants. Short of that, irresponsible people know society will step in and bail them out. Just like you can’t get blood from a rock, you can only make someone so
destitute from their choices.
 
Sounds like we need a big, beautiful, magnificent wall on the border to keep illegals out. 🤔
 
It is why I believe in child limits globally and any efforts to reduce reproduction of the human race. Globally we are only one dust bowl away from a massive starvation event. If people think wars are bad over oil wait til it is over fresh water and food. People should only reproduce at a replacement rate. Ie two children per couple.
 
OverlordBear said:
It is why I believe in child limits globally and any efforts to reduce reproduction of the human race. Globally we are only one dust bowl away from a massive starvation event. If people think wars are bad over oil wait til it is over fresh water and food. People should only reproduce at a replacement rate. Ie two children per couple.
Click to expand...
Xi, is that you??? Pie in the sky nonsense…the only way to achieve this would be to force sterilization and/or abortion. The only compliance would be among the most affluent and most capable of providing. Maybe we should start with eliminating “undesirables” and entire ethnic/racial/political groups that whoever is in power doesn’t agree with. No one has ever tried that….
 
D_Walt said:
Xi, is that you??? Pie in the sky nonsense…the only way to achieve this would be to force sterilization and/or abortion. The only compliance would be among the most affluent and most capable of providing. Maybe we should start with eliminating “undesirables” and entire ethnic/racial/political groups that whoever is in power doesn’t agree with. No one has ever tried that….
Click to expand...
May I ask what you would suggest, given that the global human population is rapidly outstripping natural resources on this planet?
 
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