Schaaf
Well-known member
Yes. Havre is clearly North-Central Montana and therefore would absolutely not understand the situation.
APR on NPR
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D
Deleted member 28227
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A vacant 2.2 acre lot in San Fran went for 10 million in 2016, looks like 10 mil will get you 25,000 acres in Garfield county.
.25 people/mile compared to 19,000 a square mile
Native grasslands and prairie ecosystems are some of the most endangered in the world, so people who care about intact, large ecosystems looked around and saw that the project area had the best habitat remaining, and put their efforts there. That's not to say that these same people haven't done conservation work in CA,NY, etc, it just means they're also doing this in MT.
Nobody's telling anyone how to live, except maybe the UPOM crowd who is actively trying to elimiante our access programs & privatize elk management. APR has done more to increase access in NE MT than UPOM has, and that seems to be the ultimate rub. You can't privatize the resource if 3.5 million acres are open for the public to enjoy.
And most of the staff is from MT. Their from Greaft Falls, Sidney, Havre, etc. Their board is a reflection of people who care about the same lands you do, but have the money to put into making it open for the public, and to protect it from subdivision, development, invasive species, etc. That's a far cry from the Wilk's brothers as well, who the UPOM crowd has taken up their cause of eliminating access (The Robbins have effectively closed off 50,000 acres of your public land & they're the ringleaders of UPOM, btw).
So, there's hopefully the answer to your question, and a little reminder of whom you're throwing in with in terms of opposition.
Are you talking about Mabee road?
Yes.
Huh, I guess that's one way to look at it.
No, there's no way to look at it to make those numbers make sense.
Was just going off memory, which is not always as sharp as it used to be. Clearly I was wrong. Gonna go take my geritol now.
10,000 acres.
Mabee Road Access Update: February 2019 - PLWA
The Mabee Road in Fergus County has served as a major public access route into the remote Upper Missouri River Breaks for more than 100 years. It runs north out of Roy for many miles until it intersects with the...
plwa.org
Was just going off memory, which is not always as sharp as it used to be. Clearly I was wrong. Gonna go take my geritol now.
10,000 acres.
Mabee Road Access Update: February 2019 - PLWA
The Mabee Road in Fergus County has served as a major public access route into the remote Upper Missouri River Breaks for more than 100 years. It runs north out of Roy for many miles until it intersects with the...
No worries, I'm just very familiar with the area and that flipped my BS meter.
Fargo Coulee has ~8,000 acres of public land in it, and is easily huntable from walking off of a county road. I never have understood why that one was fought so much compared to other access issues, and the court decision didn't surprise me one bit.
Sorry for the derail.
Historic use from many hunters, and it's tough to let one go, especially if your PLWA & you firmly believe it's a county road. Each case brings in new scrutiny of the issue, and not showing up to fight is as bad as agreeing to closures.
Factual accuracy is important, I appreciate being called out, FWIW.
What is the dislike of APR by locals. I'm not grasping it.
I've heard property values. I've heard disease. I've heard hunting. Fishing. Etc, etc.
There seems to be a "man behind the curtain" on this that as a non local I'm not privy to.
In Utah we know that any "state management" line is code for privatization.
Is there something opposing APR is code for?
The more I read about it the more cloudy the opposition seems to be.
I've heard property values. I've heard disease. I've heard hunting. Fishing. Etc, etc.
There seems to be a "man behind the curtain" on this that as a non local I'm not privy to.
In Utah we know that any "state management" line is code for privatization.
Is there something opposing APR is code for?
The more I read about it the more cloudy the opposition seems to be.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/missou...cle_417c0019-ece2-5fed-a6f9-d162fc5aedc3.html hossblur, here's an article that gets into APR's relationship with locals a little bit. mtmuley
Straight Arrow
Well-known member
Most of the reasons you hear are red herrings. As with many concerns about significant change, emotions factor heavily. In this case, the kind of fear conjured by conspiracy theories drives much of the opposition. When the national monument status for the Wild and Scenic Missouri River was explained by the Director of DOI to folks in that area of Montana, the response rhetoric was radical as some described a conspiracy involving the DOI, BLM (fedl gubment), APR, Y2Y (Yellowstone to Yukon conservation initiative), UN Agenda 21, and even other entities. The death of the rugged highly romanticized "Marlboro Man" western cowboy image has been promoted as part of the conspiracy as well. One of the most hypocritical opponents of the APR is UPOM (United Property Owners of Montana), the outfit which seems to criticize the most highly regarded private property right of all ... the transactional right of willing buyer - willing seller.
One earlier post described the proponents as foreign ultra wealthy out-of-the-area people wanting to adversely impact the Montana way of life. Although APR is supported by folks of all stripes and incomes levels from all over, it is the very nature of the positive healthy conservation concept that garners the support. To refute the foreign origin of support, I point to one of the strongest proponents and APR board member, a Chester, Montana native from a longstanding Montana family who grew up in the agricultural economy of the state and went on to hone his artistic talents to become perhaps the greatest landscape artist of the West. He and many Montanans recognize the positive aspects of the APR and in particular the great economic potential for that area of the state which needs uplift.
Two points: Where does APR buy fuel, ranch supplies, groceries, etc? More broadly, the only constant in the life of you, me, and Montana is change!
In my opinion, Montana is changing rapidly, almost entirely for the worse. The APR does not appear to be one of those negative changes.
Even, if it were, we have no right to demand it be stopped any more than we do a right to demand the developers that will sell the next plot of McMansions in Gallatin County to Lamb’s climate change refugees, stop dividing up former cattle county and elk winter range.
It’s their land and they can do with it what they want, within the law.
Even, if it were, we have no right to demand it be stopped any more than we do a right to demand the developers that will sell the next plot of McMansions in Gallatin County to Lamb’s climate change refugees, stop dividing up former cattle county and elk winter range.
It’s their land and they can do with it what they want, within the law.
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Schaaf
Well-known member
Locals have watched this area’s steady decline for the last 40 years. In their mind, they finally have something to point to as the cause, however misguided that may be.
I sit on Utah's Wasatch front. Which is pretty much a single city for 120miles.
The town I live in had 2000 residents, 1 elementary, 1 gas station grocery combination, when I started school.
I'm 45
I now live in a house that sits on an onion field we used to hunt on when I was 12.
We now have 5 elementary. 1 high school, 2 Jr highs, 4 Lane roads, etc.
It's sad, yet interesting to watch as other areas start the process that I watched 30 years ago. The same complaints, in my case by onion, corn, wheat farmers, that farming was being forced out, that a way of life was being destroyed. That the damn Californians needed to stay in Cali.
But, those farmers kids wanted no part of physical labor betting on weather. No part of full time farmer, part time mechanic, full time weather man. They grew older. The farms were sold.
Those same farmers complaining always had 3 or 4(it's Utah so often more than 4) kids. I'm not sure where they thought those kids would go to live.
That's what interested me. From the outside it looked similar to what I watched here. But i also know there are at times a lot bigger, richer interests that remain in the background manipulating issues.
I listened to Rinella on this. It seemed merky when hunting into the future came up. I find it hard to believe very rich, very liberal donors would support hunting there. That doesn't mean it shouldn't exist.
The town I live in had 2000 residents, 1 elementary, 1 gas station grocery combination, when I started school.
I'm 45
I now live in a house that sits on an onion field we used to hunt on when I was 12.
We now have 5 elementary. 1 high school, 2 Jr highs, 4 Lane roads, etc.
It's sad, yet interesting to watch as other areas start the process that I watched 30 years ago. The same complaints, in my case by onion, corn, wheat farmers, that farming was being forced out, that a way of life was being destroyed. That the damn Californians needed to stay in Cali.
But, those farmers kids wanted no part of physical labor betting on weather. No part of full time farmer, part time mechanic, full time weather man. They grew older. The farms were sold.
Those same farmers complaining always had 3 or 4(it's Utah so often more than 4) kids. I'm not sure where they thought those kids would go to live.
That's what interested me. From the outside it looked similar to what I watched here. But i also know there are at times a lot bigger, richer interests that remain in the background manipulating issues.
I listened to Rinella on this. It seemed merky when hunting into the future came up. I find it hard to believe very rich, very liberal donors would support hunting there. That doesn't mean it shouldn't exist.
mdunc8
Well-known member
I don’t know what the future holds, but one of those “very rich, liberals” who serves on the board let me and my son hunt his personal property not too far from where I live. I don’t know if he hunts (he does fish), but his son and many of his friends do.
mountainhawks
Active member
I'll take particular issue with your assertion that the Tahoe area needs restoring. The sheer number of national forests/parks in the area, suggest otherwise and limit any opportunity for a group like this to acquire huge parcels of land. Not to mention the adjoining forests and BLM land in Nevada that share the Tahoe basin and surrounding foothills. I take it you haven't spent much time in the sierras?
Seems like they are targeting a landscape that is becoming extremely rare, historically incredibly ecologically diverse, and available. But what do I know, I'm just one of the "folks from those places."
Happy Holidays!
D
Deleted member 28227
Guest
I’m genuinely curious about the critiques of APR, can anyone give some provide some cogent criticism?
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