Anyone else crying.......

[dustinf]

I'll chime in my $.02 since I'm sure everyone is justing waiting for one more comment.

I don't believe this election was about Obama or Romney as much as it was a statement about the condition of our populace. This country was founded on fundamental christian values and that the federal government should be as small as possible and still be able to protect the rights of the individual. People were intended to make their own way and keep the fruits of their labors. It is now clear, in case anyone had any doubt, that the premise of the founders of our nation is now obsolete. We are no longer a nation of people willing to make their own way and accept responsibility for their actions. The majority have spoken and they have said they want an equal share of American prosperity as an unearned birthright. Hell, some even want their share by virtue of simply making inside our borders. They want every one to give all to the government and have the ruling class distribute an equal share to the common man because they believe they cannot improve their situation on their own.

This didn't happen in the last four years but more like the last 50 years. It is not a Democratic or Republican problem, it's an American problem. We no longer teach the core values of the early Americans nor do we teach personal morality. We let our youth learn their world view from a morally bankrupt popular culture and reward them for participation instead of results. We let our representatives get away with what we know is wrong and rationalize it because the other guy was worse. It is a sad state of affairs. I'm sorry I lived long enough to recognize that the "Great Experiment" that is the original government of this country is on it's way to extinction. These last two presidential election cycles have proven the tipping point has been reached and we are now heading in an ever escalating state of decline. Not because of the person that won, but rather by the statement made by the voters, that they no longer want the government of the past. We are witnessing the end of the constitutional republic and the birth of the American social democracy. We have no one to blame but ourselves for allowing the social revolution that began in the 1960's to continue unchecked by refusing to draw a line in the sand and say "No more!". We gave up our liberty little by little until some people today don't even know what has been surrendered. I fear the only hope for a return to the values of our predecessors will be a total collapse of the government and, hopefully, there will be enough of the right people around to re-establish the American way of life from the rubble. In any case, I won't be around long enough to see the return. The end of the American Era is on the horizon. We can now take our place along side Great Britain and Spain as a "has-been" nation with a memory of when we were once the "Leader of the Free World".

Seriously?

You realize that America became a world power AFTER World War II, when all other industrialized countries were bombed into shambles. It had nothing to do with morality and Christian beliefs.

Not to mention the fact that when a small government ruled the country, we Americans were literally starving and homeless(The Great Depression). FDR's New Deal opened the flood gates for big government, but also saved Americans from the grave we dug for ourselves.

 

[sagebrush]

Not meant to be a downer, just my perspective of where we are and where it leads.

My mother was a legal resident alien from the age of one to the age of 65 when she renounced her Mexican citizenship and became a naturalized American. She was brought into this country by her migrant worker parents, legally. It can be done if you have a mind to obey the law.

diem24 - well said. I just don't know if we will have the option of a smaller government and self determination in our own lives with a majority of voters wanting to give liberty in exchange for a government hand-out. What most people don't understand is Obamacare does not give healthcare to one single person. Healthcare comes from a business relationship between a doctor and an individual. Obamacare does not force doctors to see patients, it coerces every individual to purchase medical insurance, whether they want it or not, whether they use it or not. You buy it, pay a penalty or suffer the consequences. The IRS will be the enforcer and will use the same enforcement means as they do for the collection of income tax. My experience has been that a lot of people go to a doctor when it really isn't necessary, especially if the majority of the expense is paid by an insurance company. Why not? That's want I pay insurance premiums for. Eliminate insurance and people will see a doctor when they really need medical attention. Replace medical insurance with medical loans for people that haven't had the opportunity to save enough for their medical condition. Why make people pay for medical services they never receive to cover the expense of those that can't or won't pay for services rendered? The insurance company exists because of a profit motive and only adds to the cost of real medical care. Even if an insurance company was willing to operate without a profit (government program), the overhead cost is a straight increase to the cost of the actual healthcare provided. When I was a kid, the doctor came to our home when someone was sick. If my parents couldn't afford the bill, they worked out a payment plan with the doctor. My dad and the doctor shook hands and his wife kept a 3X5 ledger card recording the payments until the bill was paid in full. People will say such a system could never work today, you need lawyers and contracts, and people would skip out on their bills. And I say that's exactly what is wrong with society in America today.

 

[sagebrush]

dustin - you missed my point. #1 we were founded on christian values, that cannot be denied. The premise was citizens of good moral character could rule themselves for their mutual benefit. #2 we became the most powerful nation in the world and that cannot be denied. Whether there is a realtionship between the two could be debated but really isn't important. #3 as Z Barebow stated, those days are in the rear view mirror, in our opinion. Time will bear out the validity of our opinion.

I also happen to believe that are many in this world that would delight in the slip of America from the position of most powerful and influential. Some are within our own country, most are not, and their motivations vary. Many citizens have unwittingly been persuaded to their aid and do not understand the consequences.

 

[thecrittergitter]

Fin....I apologize for starting this stupid thread

 

[Ben Lamb]

Fin....I apologize for starting this stupid thread

Some of us are enjoying it.

 

[dustinf]

dustin - you missed my point. #1 we were founded on christian values, that cannot be denied. The premise was citizens of good moral character could rule themselves for their mutual benefit. #2 we became the most powerful nation in the world and that cannot be denied. Whether there is a realtionship between the two could be debated but really isn't important. #3 as Z Barebow stated, those days are in the rear view mirror, in our opinion. Time will bear out the validity of our opinion.

I also happen to believe that are many in this world that would delight in the slip of America from the position of most powerful and influential. Some are within our own country, most are not, and their motivations vary. Many citizens have unwittingly been persuaded to their aid and do not understand the consequences.

My point is America is just another country in the World. That's all it ever was, all it ever will be. Our military is the most well trained and powerful in the World. That does not make us Righteous.

If you think America was founded for some moral reason, you are SADLY mistaken. I'd have to research the actual number, but I'd guess at least 75% of our "Founding Fathers" were known slave owners, womanizers, drunks, drug addicts, greedy, wife beaters, and a couple known murderers.

Their main goal was to get away from British taxes, and establish a government that they could control.

The fact of the matter is, the majority elected Obama. In 4 years, another President will be elected, and someone will be crying about how that President is going to run America into the ground.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Who gives a damn about 2004?! What is your point? When you get tired of big government and higher taxes, we'll be here waiting to have a REAL conversation with you.

You can learn a lot by listening.

This election is highly reminiscent of the 2004 election. Kerry lost easily because he was an effete east coast liberal, a lot like Romney. People don't connect with that. Also the wailing and sackcloth ashes that are going on resemble the left after Bush won re-election. I think it's just a little funny to see so much of the same thing from the other side. And I voted for Bush in 2004, btw.

. So when you are ready to have a real conversation including facts and less ranting and gnashing of teeth, I'll be here.

Until then, I've got critters to chase. Be well, go hunting, and calm down. The world hasn't ended.

 

[dustinf]

Fin....I apologize for starting this stupid thread

It's helping me cure treestand boredom...

 

[JoseCuervo]

Sagebrush, I think you hit the nail on the head! My grandfather spoke those same words to me yesterday. He referred to our nation's populace increasing to a palms up people rather than a hardworking palms down people. Everyone feels a sense of entitlement these days and you are right that people are rewarded by participation rather than results!!
.

Did he say those words to you after he cashed this month's Social Security Check?

Did he say those words before or after he took his prescriptions paid with Medicare Drug Plan?

Just wanting to know if your grandfather had ONE palm out, or BOTH of his palms out.


LMAO.

 

[Nemont]

Did he say those words to you after he cashed this month's Social Security Check?

Did he say those words before or after he took his prescriptions paid with Medicare Drug Plan?

Just wanting to know if your grandfather had ONE palm out, or BOTH of his palms out.


LMAO.

You sound like a "Montana communist", oh yeah of little values.


tough to listen to the gray panthers at coffee this morning whining about all the takers voting for Obama. All of them are over 65 and snowbird in Arizona.

Everyone is a taker in some fashion.

You also have to wonder how in just four short years the country has been ruined but when GWB was doubling the debt it was all apple pie and birds singing. I am a conservative and watched the Republican party put two wars on the credit card and give the a brand new entitlement with Medicare Part D without a funding source. So if you think one party is pure on spending vs the other party you really need to give up the left handed cigarettes.

I don't ever say quit bitching but I would say that if you can't beat Obama then you need to do some serious soul searching. Don't give me that it is the media, the "47%" or everyone on welfare. If that is the case how do you explain the Republican wave in 2010? Remember taking over the House in the Midterms? How come all the takers voted for a Republican majority in the House? If the Republican party had not been taken over by dingbats that want to Primary guys like Dick Lugar they would have retired Harry Reid. Instead the Dems gained seats in the Senate when they should have lost control of that body.

Instead of wetting your pants how about crafting a message and policies to appeal to the majority of Americans. To say that a majority want a free ride is flat being a whiny little bitch instead of being a man of principle.

Nemont

 

[WyOpitz]

Actually Jose, my grandpa has a retirement that he earned through 30 plus years of working for the bureau of reclamation after serving 4 years with the Navy. He still pays premiums to keep his federal insurance. Oh, after retiring he went to work for the county as an electrical inspector for ten years. He did this so he could have a decent retirement.
You are the kind of idiot that people are scared of. But I guess you are right, he didn't earn that retirement bc someone built the roads for him to get to work and he had clean drinking water to drink and his teachers are the reason he was successful. I am guessing that you are on some sort of assistance and have no idea what SELF-WORTH is, you can send me a thank you note.

 

[TLC]

Did he say those words to you after he cashed this month's Social Security Check? the program he paid in to. not going to get your money back if it';s there?

Did he say those words before or after he took his prescriptions paid with Medicare Drug Plan? another program he paid in to.

Just wanting to know if your grandfather had ONE palm out, or BOTH of his palms out. wasn't him. the government has it's collective hands out. guess you aren't as smart as you give yourself credit for.


LMAO.

lmao........just another attempt at trolling

 

[Nemont]

Actually Jose, my grandpa has a retirement that he earned through 30 plus years of working for the bureau of reclamation after serving 4 years with the Navy. He still pays premiums to keep his federal insurance. Oh, after retiring he went to work for the county as an electrical inspector for ten years. He did this so he could have a decent retirement.
You are the kind of idiot that people are scared of. But I guess you are right, he didn't earn that retirement bc someone built the roads for him to get to work and he had clean drinking water to drink and his teachers are the reason he was successful. I am guessing that you are on some sort of assistance and have no idea what SELF-WORTH is, you can send me a thank you note.

Care to make a bet as to whether or not he has Medicare as his primary carrier even if he is paying premium on his federal plan?

http://www.myfederalretirement.com/public/247.cfm

If he is retired and over age 65 his FEHB plan is his supplement and Medicare is primary.

So your are saying your grandpa is entitled to benefits because he paid taxes? You realize that the average Medicare recipient uses more than they paid in during the first 8 months of that coverage.

Not saying he doesn't deserve it but I have a question: Why is your Grandpa more entitled than others who worked and paid in? Is he one of the 47% Romney talked about? That 47% included everyone on medicare if you do the math.

Also if he was a public employee his entire career wasn't his entire working life paid for on the taxpayers dime?

Nemont

 

[TLC]

"Also if he was a public employee his entire career wasn't his entire working life paid for on the taxpayers dime?"

so is our military. do you have a problem with those people being on the taxpayers dime?

 

[MattK]

"Also if he was a public employee his entire career wasn't his entire working life paid for on the taxpayers dime?"

so is our military. do you have a problem with those people being on the taxpayers dime?

TLC-odd that you ask this question...it seems the Republicans have a problem with being on the "taxpayers dime".

WyOpitz- Your logic astounds me...you make it sound like the government had nothing to do with your grandpa's retirement...in fact, it sounds like it had EVERYTHING to do with his retirement. Unless I missed something...he worked for the federal GOVERNMENT (armed service), the federal GOVERNMENT (BLM) and then the county GOVERNMENT (inspector). He's one of the people you so zealously wish who wouldn't have a job as he is part of that large government...but I guess since it was your grandpa...HIS job was necessary. The road crews, EPA, and teachers had nothing to do with him being able to have safety at work, being able to get to work and having an education to get the job...yep, I understand your logic perfectly! I certainly understand why you two dislike "big government".

 

[WyOpitz]

There is a difference between someone who was in the workforce for 40 years paying taxes whether he was a government employee or not. My beef is with millions of Americans who do not pay taxes yet receive most of the benefits, ie 20% use 80% of the resources. I am disagreeing with the sense of entitlement this country currently has with regards to healthcare. I work In a hospital and see this first hand with the numerous amounts of people coming to the ER for a head cold when there is no reason of be there as it is not life-threatening.

So Matt, I would love to understand your logic...comparing people who work for a living to those who collect a check. There are many many government programs that should not exist, he was in charge of several power plants in Wyoming. You can decide whether or not his job was needed. I understand there are government jobs that are needed, I previously worked for the VA and my wife still does. You should understand that with Obama creating a larger government with an increasing deficit and with the current tax base it is unsustainable. But keep spending away, the big gov you seem to like is bankrupt for a reason. But no matter how many facts or numbers I throw at you, 2+2 will not equal 4 in your eyes.

 

[TLC]

Matt, not sure what to say. can't believe you are not smart enough to see the difference between having a job that the taxpayer pays for, and the freeloaders that the taxpayer gives money to for free. then again, think you are from california. that would explain why you don't get it. use some sense next time.

after checking, you are not from california. now I am really confused about your lack of understanding the difference.

 

[dustinf]

I am disagreeing with the sense of entitlement this country currently has with regards to healthcare. I work In a hospital and see this first hand with the numerous amounts of people coming to the ER for a head cold when there is no reason of be there as it is not life-threatening.

Google subrogation and tort.

Those 2 things, combined with fear, are the reason unregulated healthcare is bankrupting this country. Not people with colds going to the ER.

Every penny of unpaid medical "bills" are written off by hospitals and doctors. Then, deducted from the taxable income of every health system in America.

Hospitals(and their staff) are profiting BILLIONS of dollars every year.

 

[Nemont]

"Also if he was a public employee his entire career wasn't his entire working life paid for on the taxpayers dime?"

so is our military. do you have a problem with those people being on the taxpayers dime?

Nope, as a veteran and the fact that I have three brothers who also served I have no problem with the military.

My issue is that entitlements are an interesting thing when it comes to how people think. Nobody feels they don't deserve what the government hands out but everybody else is a blood sucking leech.

My point is that we can all justify our government cheese but the fact is that the average Medicare beneficiary exceeds everything they paid in by a factor of at least ten. So why is a blank check available to medicare beneficiaries regardless of ability to pay or income level or anything and that is okay but everyone else has an "entitlement mentality"?

Nemont

 

[TLC]

Google subrogation and tort.

Those 2 things, combined with fear, are the reason unregulated healthcare is bankrupting this country. Not people with colds going to the ER.

Every penny of unpaid medical "bills" are written off by hospitals and doctors. Then, deducted from the taxable income of every health system in America.

Hospitals(and their staff) are profiting BILLIONS of dollars every year.

so what. why is it your business what a businesses profits, or losses, are for the year. and FYI, you are wrong. have family in the medical field. they do not make billions of dollars a year. insurance companies decide what they make. even if they do "write off" portions of some bills.