Another Native vs. Transplant Montanan Conflict.....

[AZ402]

Just like "assault weapons and hunting" go hand in hand, the claims that "trapping and hunting" go hand in hand are the last gasp efforts of a bunch of losing trappers and assault weapon owners trying to ride the coattails and good graces that responsible hunters have created.

Huh, funny my "Assualt" rifle is now my go to varmint gun. Seems they go hand and hand for me.

 

[heelerdog]

Are Mountain Lions in California furbearing? What time of year is a cat in California have a prime coat?

How are they "out of control"? Are they suffering from massive die offs?

Well a clue mt. lions are out of control would be they are living in major metropolitan areas (Palo Alto), and stalking children at school during recess. Of course after it got killed there was the candlelight vigil. I am sure you remember that, weren't you a candle lighter?

Prime coat would be right about now by the way. Very soft, and luxurious.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Well a clue mt. lions are out of control would be they are living in major metropolitan areas (Palo Alto), and stalking children at school during recess. Of course after it got killed there was the candlelight vigil. I am sure you remember that, weren't you a candle lighter?

Prime coat would be right about now by the way. Very soft, and luxurious.

So you think all game animals should be eradicated from "majour metropolitan" areas? How big of a buffer zone do you think there needs to be? There are tons of deer in the hills above Stanford. Do they need to be eradicated also?

And, seriously, can you post me a link to a Mt. Lion Coat that is 'very soft, and luxurious'?

Do trappers target Mountain Lions???

Feb 26, 2008 - 04:05:39 CST
By RICHARD HINTON
Bismarck Tribune
A young mountain lion caught in a foothold trap north of Killdeer was euthanized after wildlife managers determined it would be unlikely to survive after being released.

A trapper found the 5- to 6-month-old, 45-pound female on Feb. 13 and reported it to the North Dakota Game and Fish Department that day, assistant wildlife chief Greg Link said Monday. The trapper, Mike Filkowski, also reported that he had checked his trap a day earlier and found it empty.

"We felt we had a good situation to salvage this cat and collar it," Link said Monday.

NDGFD personnel met Filkowski, who took them to the scene, that night. They tranquilized the cat and got its foot out of the trap.

"Because of the cold and extreme temperatures, the foot was frozen, and they were concerned it would lose the foot," Link said.

An adult mountain lion could adapt and deal with losing a foot, Link said, but not a lion that young.

"A young lion has its work cut out for it already. Young lions have a lot to learn. They have a big job ahead of them. There was no way we were going to prolong that cat's situation by releasing it. We had it dispatched," Link said.

The mountain lion is the fourth to be caught in a trap and reported to NDGFD this winter in western North Dakota. Three other lions were caught in December: a 102-pound, 4- to 5-year-old female and what was believed to be its 78-pound, 1- to 2-year-old offspring on the same day; and a 2½-year-old male that weighed 150 pounds. All three were found dead in the traps.

NDGFD furbearer biologist Dorothy Fecske, NDGFD wildlife veterinarian Erika Butler, NDGFD wildlife technician Sarah Neigum and NDGFD GIS specialist Colin Penner made the trip from Bismarck in about four hours because of "ugly roads," Link said. Mike Oehler, a wildlife biologist with the National Park Service, joined them at the site about 20 miles north of Killdeer.

"We wanted to be prepared," Link said, referring to the size of the contingent that went to the site. "Once it's sedated, and it's that cold out, we didn't know if we would have to haul it out of there to keep it warm."

From last week in Colorado.....

State wildlife officials are seeking information on someone who set an illegal leg-hold trap that snared a mountain lion in Jefferson County on Wednesday.

Rangers drug-darted the cat in Waterton Canyon after a resident reported the cougar's front paw was caught in a trap anchored with wire to a long piece of wood, said Thomas Cooper, a freelance photographer who captured the drama for the Rocky.

"It had really gotten tangled up," Cooper said.

Colorado Division of Wildlife investigators are urging anyone with information about the outlaw trapper to contact DOW at 303-291-7227.

"Someone did illegally set that trap in the canyon," said Jennifer Churchill, a spokeswoman for DOW. "If anyone knows who set that trap, we'd certainly love to hear from them."

Wildlife officials removed the trap and were monitoring the big cat in hopes that it can lope back into the wild. Churchill said they would probably release her Wednesday night or this morning.

"It looks like an older female, 12 years old or older," Churchill said. "She's kind of skinny," which isn't unusual as cats age and their teeth become worn from pouncing on prey.

"But she is expected to recover form the trap. Animals can walk away from those leg-hold traps," Churchill said.

"So they're going to give her a little bit of time and see how she does when she gets up and starts moving around. We are expected at this point just to release her," she said.

It sure looks like trapping is a pretty indiscriminate activity, at least in North Dakota..... Or should we believe these are only the 2% without 2 firing brain cells???

By RICHARD HINTON
Bismarck Tribune
Three mountain lions in the Badlands have been snared accidentally since mid-December in devices set out to trap bobcats.

Two of the cougars were trapped at one time northwest of Grassy Butte around Dec. 12, and the third was caught Dec. 22 west of Fairfield, which is between Medora and Grassy Butte, Greg Link, the North Dakota Game and Fish Department assistant wildlife division chief, said Tuesday.

"There is a lot of (trapping) activity for bobcats, and we know that can translate into mountain lions being caught. Those trappers have been cooperative in reporting when they do inadvertently trap a mountain lion, and they let us know about it," he said.

The pair of cats is believed to be a mother and offspring that were caught in snares about 100 yards apart.

The female weighed 102 pounds and was between 4 and 5 years old. The younger cat was between 1 and 2 years old and weighed 78 pounds, Link said.

"They were both found the same day," he added.

The latest caught cat was a male about 2½ years old that weighed about 150 pounds.

"They were all caught in neck snares, so the animals pretty much died immediately," Link said.

Trappers, too, are concerned about finding the wrong species of cat in their traps, said Rick Tischaefer, of the North Dakota Fur Hunters and Trappers Association.

"We're looking at it. We will put our thinking caps on to figure out what to do to reduce these incidental catches," he said.

Prices for bobcat pelts are "phenomenal, so there is a financial incentive (to trap)," he added. "As professionals, we have a responsibility to do something about it, not stick our heads in the sand and say, 'That's not right.'"

Four mountain lions were accidentally trapped last season. Three died, and one, caught in a foot-hold trap, was tranquilized and fitted with a radio collar, Link said.

That cat, a male between 2½ and 3½, has been traveling in a 207-square-mile area in the Badlands since November of 2006, said Dorothy Fecske, NDGFD furbearer biologist.

Since the mountain lion season closed in Zone 1 on Nov. 10, NDGFD has verified 14 lion sightings, including the snared cats, in the Badlands country that's considered the lions' primary range in North Dakota. Called Zone 1, that area sits west of state Highway 8 and south of state Highway 1804.

For 2007, NDGFD confirmed 55 mountain lion sightings, 51 in Zone 1, Fecske added.

NDGFD representatives have met with trapping organizations such as the North Dakota Fur Takers Association and the North Dakota Fur Hunters and Trappers Association on regulations and issues, Link said.

"We discussed ways to reduce the likelihood of this happening," Link said. "But it's obvious it can still happen.

 

[BigHornRam]

Nemont,

What do you think about people like BigWhore who claim to be contractor/builders catering to incoming transplants and then complain about the transplants wanting to change their lifestyle?

S. S. probably can vouch for this Jose, more and more of my work comes from people who don't understand hunting. When they find out I like to hunt, they ask me how I can kill these wonderful animals. I do the best I can to tell them what hunting is all about to me, and I think it helps and opens some minds.

I worked on house for a big city couple that my wife works with a couple years ago. They didn't start out as fans to hunting. We ended up serving them a wild game meal and they loved it. My wife has also brought in crockpot game dishes to her non-hunting coworkers with equal results.

Unfortunately I will not even waste my time pointing out to these same people the benefits of trapping. There minds are closed to any reason about trapping.....kind of like you.

Amazing how many people come here, build a big fancy log home in the woods, and then immediately become anti-logging activists. People are funny.

 

[JoseCuervo]

S. S. probably can vouch for this Jose, more and more of my work comes from people who don't understand hunting. When they find out I like to hunt, they ask me how I can kill these wonderful animals. I do the best I can to tell them what hunting is all about to me, and I think it helps and opens some minds.

Yeah, I kind of figured that talk was the best you can do....

Hate to see you have to extend yourself and actually make a difference.

 

[MattK]

Jose- I'm not sure if all of this applies to every trapper but you did ask what use trapping has.

Providing Products People Use Everyday
It is a mistaken belief that fur is the only part of the animal used by society. Often, nearly the entire animal is used.

Most animals caught by Illinois fur hunters and trappers are sold to fur buyers. Fur buyers prepare the fur for resale, market other parts of the animal, and send the rest to animal by-products facilities.


Regulated harvests provide a local, healthy, economical and organic source of food and clothing with minimal impacts to other resources.

Read more about how trapping is ecologically sound.


Yes, people value fur
People for thousands of years have used fur for clothing. Today, fur remains highly valued for garments and other items. In addition to its attractiveness, fur has water-repellant qualities and provides excellent insulation.


Everyday Americans wear fur. Hunters and trappers often have furs made into hats, coats and blankets.
Photo by www.zenwaiter.com


Furs are tanned, trimmed and sewn into garments, blankets and ornaments, and dyed in colors and patterns. Furs are used in fishing lures, fine brushes and other products. Some furs are shaved, and the hair processed into felt for hats and clothing.

Furbearers as food
Hunters and trappers often eat the meat of some furbearers and other game, just as others eat pork and beef. When prepared properly, the meat from raccoon, beaver and opossum can make a great meal.

Learn how trapping is a way of life for some people.


Trappers and hunters eat furbearers such as raccoon, beaver and opossum. Hunters here enjoy an outdoors meal.
Photo by D.J. Case and Associates


Rendering: the invisible industry
Rendering is the process by which animal fat is processed into a variety of products used everyday by people around the world.

Many animals that are trapped are made available to the rendering industry, where they are used to produce soap, livestock feed, paint, tires, ice cream, textiles and construction materials.


Many commonly used household items such as soap and paint are made in part from animal products.
Photo by D.J. Case and Associates



Reducing Overpopulation and Property Damage
When wild animals become too numerous, they can cause problems for humans, as well as their own populations.

Wildlife overpopulation can lead to parasitism such as mange, as well as diseases such as rabies and distemper. As more and more animals crowd together, diseases often increase. Large die-offs due to disease are common under these circumstances. Some diseases and parasites, such as rabies and mange can affect people and pets.


This fox suffers from mange, an unsightly condition caused by burrowing mange mites. Mange is contagious and spreads easily when wildlife overpopulate. This disease can spread to domestic dogs and, on rare occasions, even humans.
Photo by George Hubert


Regulated hunting and trapping reduces threats to human and pet health and safety by decreasing wildlife populations and exposure to diseases.

Hunting and trapping help maintain a balance between wildlife and people by reducing or preventing expensive damage to agricultural crops, buildings and other property. Regulated harvests help manage healthy wildlife populations.


Beavers can devastate valuable landscaping such as trees and shrubs. Their dams can cause flooding in crop fields, across roadways and in neighborhood yards.
Photo by D.J. Case and Associates



Benefits Rare and Endangered Species

Reintroducing species:
Wildlife biologists sometimes use foothold traps (traps that capture an animal by the foot) to capture rare or endangered species unharmed. These animals then are freed elsewhere to reestablish healthy wildlife populations.

Such is the case for river otters in Illinois. As part of an extensive reintroduction project in the 1990s, river otters were captured safely in Louisiana, where numbers are plentiful, and released in Illinois, where populations were scarce.

Today, otters abound throughout the state.


Illinois DNR was able to successfully restore river otter populations using trapping methods commonly used by Illinois trappers.
Photo by Illinois DNR



Protecting species:
Trapping is an important management tool to protect the health and viability of many established or newly reestablished populations of rare or endangered plant and animal species. Foothold traps are particularly important management tools to protect rare and endangered species from undesirable levels of predation by species like fox and coyote. (Note: Types of traps vary depending on species that are being removed.)

Predators trapped during these operations are removed or relocated after capture. Trapping may be carried out by federal or state wildlife biologists and animal control agents, or by private, regulated trappers.


Greater prairie chickens are state endangered.
Photo by Saskatchewan Environment
Trapping predators such as opossums protects prairie chickens in Illinois.
Photo by Bob Gress

In Illinois, the following threatened or endangered species are protected through trapping:

Forster's tern females (state endangered) and their eggs are protected from predation by trapping raccoons, coyotes and other mammals that pose a threat during the nesting season.
Greater prairie chicken females (state endangered) and their eggs are protected by trapping raccoons, striped skunks and opossums.
Eastern prairie fringed orchids (state endangered and federally threatened) are protected from flooding caused by beaver dams. Trapping beavers eliminates animals that would build dams in areas where orchids grow.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Jose- I'm not sure if all of this applies to every trapper but you did ask what use trapping has.

Most of it doesn't do much to provide an argument in the affirmative for the for the commercial trapping industry...

Hunters and trappers often have furs made into hats, coats and blankets

If the best argument is that hunters and trappers need to trap so they have coats to wear hunting and trapping, the argument is lost....

Everyday Americans wear fur

Really??? Where???

When wild animals become too numerous, they can cause problems for humans, as well as their own populations.

Wildlife overpopulation can lead to parasitism such as mange, as well as diseases such as rabies and distemper. As more and more animals crowd together, diseases often increase. Large die-offs due to disease are common under these circumstances. Some diseases and parasites, such as rabies and mange can affect people and pets.


This fox suffers from mange, an unsightly condition caused by burrowing mange mites. Mange is contagious and spreads easily when wildlife overpopulate. This disease can spread to domestic dogs and, on rare occasions, even humans.



Regulated hunting and trapping reduces threats to human and pet health and safety by decreasing wildlife populations and exposure to diseases.

Hunting and trapping help maintain a balance between wildlife and people by reducing or preventing expensive damage to agricultural crops, buildings and other property. Regulated harvests help manage healthy wildlife populations.


Beavers can devastate valuable landscaping such as trees and shrubs. Their dams can cause flooding in crop fields, across roadways and in neighborhood yards.

Do trappers really like to trap foxes with mange??? What articles of clothing does one make out of a mange ridden fox?

I struggle with believing that we should trap animals to protect people and pets from diseases.... Seems like nonsense.

 

[MattK]

Jose-

I struggle with believing that we should trap animals to protect people and pets from diseases.... Seems like nonsense.

You are correct, I have never spent any time trapping unless you count mice in the house. And there, it was mostly about cutting the cheese correctly or spreading the peanut butter.

Nice that you are arguing to be arguing. Some of what you post is quite engaging while you contradict yourself on parts. If protecting people and pets from disease were not an issue...why trap mice? I guess the plague isn't appealing to you? Also, you seem stuck on the hats and coats...how about endangered species, animal byproducts used in many ways. You didn't mention these at all. A lot of people wear clothing made from furs with and without knowing it. Obviously there is a need for furbearers or there would not be a market for them...

 

[Nemont]

I like trapping, I don't want to trap people's dogs but sometimes, rarely, it happens, trapping is fun, trapping let's me get outside more.

I can't understand anyone who is prohunting would be anti trapping. Seems strange.

As for guys who helps build the McMansions and then complain about all the people coming to live in them, that seems strange as well.

Nemont

 

[JoseCuervo]

Jose-



Nice that you are arguing to be arguing. Some of what you post is quite engaging while you contradict yourself on parts. If protecting people and pets from disease were not an issue...why trap mice? I guess the plague isn't appealing to you? Also, you seem stuck on the hats and coats...how about endangered species, animal byproducts used in many ways. You didn't mention these at all. A lot of people wear clothing made from furs with and without knowing it. Obviously there is a need for furbearers or there would not be a market for them...

I assure you that all mice I have trapped have been inside and not for purposes of disease control. Plaque does not seem to be one of the things that keeps me up at night worrying. And, if it did, I would just brush my teeth better and not worry about mice.

This thread started with somebody upset that trapping was harming their dog, and you brought it a full circle to justify harming beagles in Montana with your noble cause of ridding the world of plaque and tooth decay. I assume you are concerned with gingivitis on dogs also?

And, not sure there is an "obvious" market for furs. We have had some pretty cold weather here lately and I have not seen a single gentleman strolling down the street in a beaver fur hat. I have not checked a recent annual report on the Hudson Bay Company, but I am guessing that Revenue from Fur Sales is down a bit in the last 300 years.....

 

[BigHornRam]

What qualifies as a McMansion Nemont. Can guys that work on homes for the average Joe, still complain about the stuffed shirts moving in the McMansions?

 

[JoseCuervo]

What qualifies as a McMansion Nemont. Can guys that work on homes for the average Joe, still complain about the stuffed shirts moving in the McMansions?

Only in your myopic world do you think building houses for guys that are "average Joe" and cater to the people by mowing their lawns, selling them clothes, processing their bank deposits, cooking their food of the McMansion residents is somehow a noble effort.

Just because you can't get bids on the big jobs doesn't mean you can whine about those who turn you down.

 

[noharleyyet]

I can guarantee that a 100X Stetson wouldn't look right on the pointed head of a dimestore Idahoan.

 

[The Hedgehog]

for any of you guys wanting to buy an assault rifle.. contact my sister Katie at www.championfirearms.com They are selling the crap out of them and probably have some really good prices..

 

[AZ402]

I can guarantee that a 100X Stetson wouldn't look right on the pointed head of a dimestore Idahoan.

True words have never been written.

 

[heelerdog]

So you think all game animals should be eradicated from "majour metropolitan" areas? How big of a buffer zone do you think there needs to be? There are tons of deer in the hills above Stanford. Do they need to be eradicated also?

And, seriously, can you post me a link to a Mt. Lion Coat that is 'very soft, and luxurious'?

Do trappers target Mountain Lions???

Put your football helmet back on you could get hurt. When did I state I wanted to eradicate anything? Double up on your meds, you seem to be losing your grip even more so than usual.

Can't post a link about the lion fur. Sadly you would have to go to this place we call outside. You see I actually touched one. Now don't lose it completely, it was dead too.

 

[RockyDog]

I have a relative that has trapped the bitterfroot for years and i definitely support trapping. He's been doing it since we were little and nowdays gets some wolves (by accident and turns them into FWP) each year and whats not to like about that.

However, i do have to say the Bitterfroot has some lazy scumbag type trappers. Their trap lines consist of sets where they can drive around and check them using binoculars from their truck seat. This results in traps baited with meat very near popular roads and trailheads. When i go looking for sheds in Jan/Feb i have to keep my dog on a leash for the first 300 yards cuz i come across these traps very often. A friend lost his family dog while on a family outing last year.

A trapline on a trail, now that is trapping. This Bitterrfroot stuff is "Road Trapping". And the guys doing it are construction workers...catering to the transplants that dont like trapping. Hows that for circular irony.

 

[BigHornRam]

Maybe Greenhorn remembers this story? Around 6 to 8 years ago, a Bozeman area guy had his dog running around along the Gallatin. It got into a 330 conibear, and the guy couldn't figure out how to unspring the trap. He didn't want the dog to suffer, and didn't have gun, so he slit the dogs throat with a pocket knife. He went to get help, and when he got back the dog was still alive. Appearently he slit the dogs windpipe, not the jugular, below where the conibear was cutting off his air supply. The dog survived with little complications. Talk about dumb luck.

Education of pet owners on the release of traps is not a bad thing, IMO. Both pet owners and trappers should be equally responsible while using the public lands in winter around here.

One other thing......I wonder how this guy would of felt if Sparky got ripped to shreads by the resident wolf pack in Lost Horse? Would it have been as news worthy?

 

[BigHornRam]

On Buzz's recommendation, I read the Lochsa Story. Them bitterfruit trappers were tuff back then......definately not road trappers. Poachers maybe.......but not road trappers.

 

[BuzzH]

So, did I make a good recommendation or not?