American prairie. What's the issue?

[Eric Albus]

I read, or maybe heard a podcast somewhere, that with ranch land prices such that they are these days, there are really only a few hundred people in this country with both the means, and desire, to purchase said lands at todays prices. That’s a pretty niche market. I don’t think that is the fault of the AP. And I don’t think cashing in while they can via a buyer with the means and desire is a fault of the rancher. But the days of the family ranch are numbered, no matter how you slice it. The writing is on the wall, and I think it is hopeful foresight, rather than ill-will towards todays ranchers, that make some of us value what AP is trying to do.

I can agree with one thing, it isn’t the APF’s fault.
Being a non-profit that doesn’t live by the rules does make a difference. Being a non-profit funded by billionaires and foreigners makes a difference.

While some of you do not care that the “semi” open gate policy will one day end(perhaps not in my lifetime, but certainly the next generation) I do care.

The end.

 

[brocksw]

Govt subsidizes farmers heavy, the rancher less so.

Crop Insurance is a huge advantage with farmers too. Not to mention the billions of dollars devoted to precision AG, an entire industry devoted to making farmers more profitable and more efficient on average. If there's support like that for ranchers, from an entire industry and an entire financial sector, I'm not aware of it or am brain farting it at the moment. To me, those are not insignificant things working in your favor.

 

[elkduds]

Just remember this, "he who controls the food, controls the people, and "Control the oil, and you control the nations". Without oil the food supply becomes near non-existent.

You omitted water. Here in the west, it comes before food and oil.

 

[Nameless Range]

I read, or maybe heard a podcast somewhere, that with ranch land prices such that they are these days, there are really only a few hundred people in this country with both the means, and desire, to purchase said lands at todays prices. That’s a pretty niche market. I don’t think that is the fault of the AP. And I don’t think cashing in while they can via a buyer with the means and desire is a fault of the rancher. But the days of the family ranch are numbered, no matter how you slice it. The writing is on the wall, and I think it is hopeful foresight, rather than ill-will towards todays ranchers, that make some of us value what AP is trying to do.

I agree with this and you regarding the hopeful foresight of APR.

There’s statement from this though I think we should be careful about. The trend of the existence of the family ranch is one of diminishment, but the family ranch is still the backbone of a lot of agriculture in Montana as well as good things going for the hunting public, and I believe will be long after we are gone.

When I think of the family ranches out there and hunting, I think of some thing like block management. A large portion of the 6 million acres out there for us to walk upon are the smaller ranches.




When I think of the places I know well - The Boulder Valley, The Elkhorns - places rich with the block management program, I know many of the participants, and they are family ranches with a plan to be so for as long as they can.

I don’t mean to quibble, and I don’t think I’m writing anything you disagree with, but I think it is worth pointing out that regardless of the trend of the existence of the family ranch, I don’t know if we would benefit from saying their days are numbered. They are still some of our greatest allies and stewards, and if hunting in Montana is to ever improve and our divisiveness to diminish, I actually think they might be the most influential contingent toward that end. There’s a fair amount of examples of them being bridges to success in localized efforts.

 

[BuzzH]

BLM is a great deal, no doubt. While your staples from the grocery store may seem high priced, imagine what they be without the subsidies? Farm subsidies keep some operations viable that should've gone broke long ago. While I despise gov't subsidies I can look and see it may be a necessary evil.

The farmer is the direct beneficiary of the subsidy. Do remember this, the consumer is the indirect beneficiary, provided historically cheap food.

If all small operations were shut out of business where would that leave us? (there are more and more small operations leasing out at an unprecedented pace today)

Bigger and bigger family/corporate farms. What happens when the U.S. is farmed by 100-200 huge family/corporate operations, and a few foreign conglomerations? They will have the power to sit on grain crops until they get the price they demand. This will be a huge change from my lifetime and back to my great-great grandfathers of "taking what the elevator is offering". This is a very dangerous thing.

Just remember this, "he who controls the food, controls the people, and "Control the oil, and you control the nations". Without oil the food supply becomes near non-existent.

Guess who is allowing all that to happen?

The politicians you routinely vote for...they've never met a corporation they cared more about than the average farmer. The average farmer who they could really care less about unless its an election year. But they really don't care enough about them the remaining 3 years and 364 days to actually keep subsidies in the hands of the small guy. Oh, hell no, they allow the corporate operations to sweep in a vast majority of the farm bill subsidies.

Oh, sure the small operator gets a few crumbs...

Here you do Eric, ask yourself why the politicians you vote for are cutting the throats of the family farmer. Ask yourself why you vote for someone that is actively working against the people you care about?

It takes divorcing yourself from reality...and I've never understood why you would vote for someone actively working against you.

EWG's Farm Subsidy Database

EWG's Farm Subsidy Database put the issue on the map and is driving reform. Just ten percent of America's largest and richest farms collect almost three-fourths of federal farm subsidies; cash payments that often harm the environment.

farm.ewg.org

 

[Eric Albus]

Guess who is allowing all that to happen?

The politicians you routinely vote for...they've never met a corporation they cared more about than the average farmer. The average farmer who they could really care less about unless its an election year. But they really don't care enough about them the remaining 3 years and 364 days to actually keep subsidies in the hands of the small guy. Oh, hell no, they allow the corporate operations to sweep in a vast majority of the farm bill subsidies.

Oh, sure the small operator gets a few crumbs...

Here you do Eric, ask yourself why the politicians you vote for are cutting the throats of the family farmer. Ask yourself why you vote for someone that is actively working against the people you care about?

It takes divorcing yourself from reality...and I've never understood why you would vote for someone actively working against you.

EWG's Farm Subsidy Database

EWG's Farm Subsidy Database put the issue on the map and is driving reform. Just ten percent of America's largest and richest farms collect almost three-fourths of federal farm subsidies; cash payments that often harm the environment.

farm.ewg.org

Perhaps I care less about my bottom line than I do certain other issues. I knew when Trump was elected that we’d suffer a bit with commodity prices, big deal? Not compared to 6-7 dollar diesel, 900-1000$$ a ton fertilizer. Went from inflation to near zero to 15~20%(before nay saying, think of the price of a candy bar or bag of jerky at the gas station). 4 years ago I could’ve bought a tanker(10,000 gal) of gasoline for .77(yes seventy seven cent a gallon). Prices may have been lower, but so we’re expenses. Need I explain more??
Ok….

Take the opposition with open borders, fake environmental crisis continually,
infanticide, promoting alternate lifestyles in schools, promoting life/sex changing operations on minors, oil/gas/mining are bad, condemnation of any and all that is good? I’d still hang myself before voting for a liberal.

 

[406dn]

Govt subsidizes farmers heavy, the rancher less so.

It’s all about a cheap supply of food.

Keep the masses happy,cheap food and fuel, more $$ to spend on travel/recreation.

No, it is an effort to keep farmers on the land. The other is a spin off from the primary purpose.

 

[Eric Albus]

You omitted water. Here in the west, it comes before food and oil.

You could not be more correct. “Whiskey is for drinking, water is for fighting”.

 

[Eric Albus]

No, it is an effort to keep farmers on the land. The other is a spin off from the primary purpose.

The primary is keeping the masses happy with cheap food, equals more $$ for recreation to keep their minds off what the govt is really doing.

 

[Eric Albus]

Crop Insurance is a huge advantage with farmers too. Not to mention the billions of dollars devoted to precision AG, an entire industry devoted to making farmers more profitable and more efficient on average. If there's support like that for ranchers, from an entire industry and an entire financial sector, I'm not aware of it or am brain farting it at the moment. To me, those are not insignificant things working in your favor.

There is rangeland insurance, which offers some protection for the rancher, but is marginal.
Crop Ins. is a must for most farm operations(it’s expensive), but where we live is oft times marginal as well. The bubble can be costly(when you raise just enough to collect nothing and are out the big premium).

 

[406dn]

Perhaps I care less about my bottom line than I do certain other issues. I knew when Trump was elected that we’d suffer a bit with commodity prices, big deal? Not compared to 6-7 dollar diesel, 900-1000$$ a ton fertilizer. Went from inflation to near zero to 15~20%(before nay saying, think of the price of a candy bar or bag of jerky at the gas station). 4 years ago I could’ve bought a tanker(10,000 gal) of gasoline for .77(yes seventy seven cent a gallon). Prices may have been lower, but so we’re expenses. Need I explain more??
Ok….

Take the opposition with open borders, fake environmental crisis continually,
infanticide, promoting alternate lifestyles in schools, promoting life/sex changing operations on minors, oil/gas/mining are bad, condemnation of any and all that is good? I’d still hang myself before voting for a liberal.

You could at least put some real facts in your assertions rather than pulling them out, I'll be nice, thin air.

There has not been a time since I bought my first diesel truck where the price for diesel was so low that off road diesel would be $0.77/gallon. Perhaps you are remembering buying it in Canada by the liter.

I WISH diesel hit $6-7/gallon. All of the company stock I accumulated from working 28 years in the oil refinery would be double what it is.

You and I can thank Putin for the price of fertilizer. It happens that I own a fair amount of Nutrien stock. It went no where before the war in Ukraine. Between that taking a lot of potash off the world market, he has made natural gas more valuable as well.

Yeah, you need to explain more, maybe with verifiable facts.

 

[Eric Albus]

You could at least put some real facts in your assertions rather than pulling them out, I'll be nice, thin air.

There has not been a time since I bought my first diesel truck where the price for diesel was so low that off road diesel would be $0.77/gallon. Perhaps you are remembering buying it in Canada by the liter.

I WISH diesel hit $6-7/gallon. All of the company stock I accumulated from working 28 years in the oil refinery would be double what it is.

You and I can thank Putin for the price of fertilizer. It happens that I own a fair amount of Nutrien stock. It went no where before the war in Ukraine. Between that taking a lot of potash off the world market, he has made natural gas more valuable as well.

Yeah, you need to explain more, maybe with verifiable facts.

Gasoline is what we could’ve bought, a tanker load, delivered at 10,000 gallons at Shot, for 77 cents a gallon.
Read a little closer. My fault for not referring clear diesel

 

[Eric Albus]

You could at least put some real facts in your assertions rather than pulling them out, I'll be nice, thin air.

There has not been a time since I bought my first diesel truck where the price for diesel was so low that off road diesel would be $0.77/gallon. Perhaps you are remembering buying it in Canada by the liter.

I WISH diesel hit $6-7/gallon. All of the company stock I accumulated from working 28 years in the oil refinery would be double what it is.

You and I can thank Putin for the price of fertilizer. It happens that I own a fair amount of Nutrien stock. It went no where before the war in Ukraine. Between that taking a lot of potash off the world market, he has made natural gas more valuable as well.

Yeah, you need to explain more, maybe with verifiable facts.

Clear diesel is what I was referring to, pushed the 6 dollar amount.

 

[406dn]

Clear diesel is what I was referring to, pushed the 6 dollar amount.

I assume you are talking #1 diesel. That has always been higher priced than #2. That is not what most people use most of the time.

 

[sclancy27]

I assume you are talking #1 diesel. That has always been higher priced than #2. That is not what most people use most of the time.

Regular #2 was 5.99$ a gallon this summer in Helena, I paid over $6 a couple places in MT. That is what he is referring too.

 

[Luke_with_a_lab]

Just thinking out loud but If the APR ever did shut the doors to hunters and public access would it be possible to lobby the BLM to suspend their grazing permits? If that is possible it would seem like a good way to ensure public access. If the APR didn't have the BLM to graze on they would then have to maintain fences and keep their bison off that BLM land, then they couldn't have the giant open range they want.

 

[MNElkNut]

Personally, I would treat AP like I would treat any other neighbor...like I would like to be treated. Until they demonstrate ill intent, I would take them at their word and embrace them as neighbors should.

I have followed this and all other AP threads from the beginning and I have not seen any evidence of them being bad neighbors, but on the contrary, have seen examples of them being great neighbors.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Just thinking out loud but If the APR ever did shut the doors to hunters and public access would it be possible to lobby the BLM to suspend their grazing permits? If that is possible it would seem like a good way to ensure public access. If the APR didn't have the BLM to graze on they would then have to maintain fences and keep their bison off that BLM land, then they couldn't have the giant open range they want.

You could lobby the BLM to do that, but there's no law that would allow for it. The private property rights are not co-mingled with grazing leasing as it relates to hunting/recreational access.

 

[Big Fin]

Just thinking out loud but If the APR ever did shut the doors to hunters and public access would it be possible to lobby the BLM to suspend their grazing permits? If that is possible it would seem like a good way to ensure public access. If the APR didn't have the BLM to graze on they would then have to maintain fences and keep their bison off that BLM land, then they couldn't have the giant open range they want.

You might have found the path to put AP and public land grazers on the same side. I disagree with that approach and I don’t think many are interested in using grazing permits to force access to deeded land. If you did promote that idea and focused it only at AP, I suspect ranchers would join AP against your efforts.

 

[SAJ-99]

Most of them aren't "leasing to an outfitter" they're leasing to heavy hitting businessmen, most of whom live in State. Near as anyone who can tell 2-3x's more land is leased by hunt clubs and individuals as outfitters. Just blame it on the outfitter, as we're the soft target.

Don’t be so sensitive. I wasn’t “blaming” anyone. It was just an example. I don’t think a landowner is going to stop leasing because they have discovered the economic advantage in doing it. I don’t doubt for a second that individuals lease more land than outfitters. They are putting money into local communities, right? That is a topic for a different thread. MOGA occasionally publishes the amount of land leases by outfitter members. Number I saw was 6.5m acres.