American prairie. What's the issue?

[Hydrophilic]

If you really think about it, do you really think that the last 10 years of activity on the topic has been a greater burden on we straight folks than the last several hundred years of discrimination have been on the LGBTQ population.

Honestly, how many times has LGTBQ activism caused you to worry about getting a job, or about having a place to live, or about being able to access appropriate medical services, or being able to marry whom you loved or about your personal safety walking alone?

I am not trying to be argumentative, but sincerely, why is this such a big deal to liberty loving folks? To each there own tends to be my motto.

An age old question. There are those who thought amendments 13,14,15,19,24 were too radical, and the ERA still hasn't been ratified. It makes me wonder if we were great by default, or are becoming great through progress?

50 years ago sex equality seemed destined for the Constitution. What happened?

The U.S. Senate overwhelmingly voted to approve the Equal Rights Amendment in 1972, paving the way for it to become the 28th amendment to the U.S. Constitution. It was roaring along...until it wasn't.

www.npr.org

 

[Eric Albus]

The history of the westward expansion is rife with the landed gentry trying to take control over the entirety of the land: Scottish & English Barons saw the beef market and cheap land/grazing as a way to financial wealth, so they bought large swaths of the west to run their cows, often times coming into conflict with settlers and pioneers. The Johnson County Cattle War, the sheep wars of AZ, etc. Hell, 1/2 of the westerns are about some of these Ponces & their inability to let the average person just live. TR was a wealthy elitist from New York City who made a terrible rancher when he bought his place in the Breaks & then went broke quickly.

The copper kings bought their own kingdoms, municipalities and even Senate Seats, back when you could be honest about your bribery.

We have the same situation today, regardless of being a non-profit or a wealthy elite who wants to be king of their own realm.

The hypocrisy between sides not wanting to acknowledge the same issues is pretty funny to me. Especially when we know that the billionaires are funding "save the cowboy" campaigns.

In fairness to TR, he wasn’t a very good cowboy, but as a rancher he was fairing alright, up to the great winter of ‘86-87.

There has always been change in the wind, especially for Eastern Mt.

The bison were wiped out and natives were stripped of their nation.

Room was made for the big cattle expansion to feed a growing demand.

Winter 1886-7 crippled the big cow outfits who civilized the prairie.

Jim Hills railroad and hoards of optimistic homesteaders flooded the prairie, with plows and barb wire in hand. These optimistic folks were soon stone broke and hungry, leaving behind leaving scars on the land to prove they once were here. A few hardy ones made a living and stayed, slowly selling out to those a little more fortunate or more successful.
As we look around now I see some “farm operations “ preparing to plant 40,000 acres, the “really big outfits” planting in excess of 100k acres. Good size cow outfits running 2500-10,000 head. Numbers unimaginable in my youth.
So the inescapable truth of it all is change has always been upon us. The family ranch/farm operations are about to as obsolete as obsidian arrowheads.

 

[Eric Albus]

An age old question. There are those who thought amendments 13,14,15,19,24 were too radical, and the ERA still hasn't been ratified. It makes me wonder if we were great by default, or are becoming great through progress?

50 years ago sex equality seemed destined for the Constitution. What happened?

The U.S. Senate overwhelmingly voted to approve the Equal Rights Amendment in 1972, paving the way for it to become the 28th amendment to the U.S. Constitution. It was roaring along...until it wasn't.

www.npr.org

So off topic

 

[406dn]

In fairness to TR, he wasn’t a very good cowboy, but as a rancher he was fairing alright, up to the great winter of ‘86-87.

There has always been change in the wind, especially for Eastern Mt.

The bison were wiped out and natives were stripped of their nation.

Room was made for the big cattle expansion to feed a growing demand.

Winter 1886-7 crippled the big cow outfits who civilized the prairie.

Jim Hills railroad and hoards of optimistic homesteaders flooded the prairie, with plows and barb wire in hand. These optimistic folks were soon stone broke and hungry, leaving behind leaving scars on the land to prove they once were here. A few hardy ones made a living and stayed, slowly selling out to those a little more fortunate or more successful.
As we look around now I see some “farm operations “ preparing to plant 40,000 acres, the “really big outfits” planting in excess of 100k acres. Good size cow outfits running 2500-10,000 head. Numbers unimaginable in my youth.
So the inescapable truth of it all is change has always been upon us. The family ranch/farm operations are about to as obsolete as obsidian arrowheads.

This is a good thumbnail summary of the history of the great plains.

Everything mentioned also paved the way for an APR to spring up, somewhere.

Smaller operators have been and are slowly going broke or old... or both. The two options are someone bigger taking over, or some percentage of it being conserved in as an original condition as modern man can do.

Obviously, it is a non starter for a government entity to create an APR. I applaud that there are private organizations willing to step in.

 

[Eric Albus]

This is a good thumbnail summary of the history of the great plains.

Everything mentioned also paved the way for an APR to spring up, somewhere.

Smaller operators have been and are slowly going broke or old... or both. The two options are someone bigger taking over, or some percentage of it being conserved in as an original condition as modern man can do.

Obviously, it is a non starter for a government entity to create an APR. I applaud that there are private organizations willing to step in.

If I lived in a city with a 9-5 and had no great affection for this great area in the arid plains I’d most likely feel the same. When you’re born and raised here and see your neighbors and way of life suffocating you hold a little different feeling toward the APR, and wealthy outsiders.
Applaud the APR, as they are the entity who’ll replace the billionaires.
When they padlock the gates remember what I told you the former director said, “eventually there will be no hunting allowed on the APR”.

 

[406dn]

If I lived in a city with a 9-5 and had no great affection for this great area in the arid plains I’d most likely feel the same. When you’re born and raised here and see your neighbors and way of life suffocating you hold a little different feeling toward the APR, and wealthy outsiders.
Applaud the APR, as they are the entity who’ll replace the billionaires.
When they padlock the gates remember what I told you the former director said, “eventually there will be no hunting allowed on the APR”.

First, you are wrong if you assume I have no affection for the great plains.

Also, I do not cheer that the way of life on the great plains is so difficult to sustain. In your heart, you know how it will trend. It has been trending the same way for many years. The dryness of the great plains climate makes certain that there will be periods of drought. Before we settled the plains, animals just wandered the plains to where there had been enough moisture to grow grass.

Now ranchers and farmers must endure the drought, where they are. The drought might be one year or several. It makes it very difficult to stay financially solvent.

As to the future of hunting on the APR. If the day comes that they end hunting, they will be exercising the same prerogative that every private landowner has. Presently they are far more welcoming than many ranchers, when it comes to big game hunting. They may find over a span of years that the hunters who frequent their lands become donors and political allies.

 

[Eric Albus]

First, you are wrong if you assume I have no affection for the great plains.

Also, I do not cheer that the way of life on the great plains is so difficult to sustain. In your heart, you know how it will trend. It has been trending the same way for many years. The dryness of the great plains climate makes certain that there will be periods of drought. Before we settled the plains, animals just wandered the plains to where there had been enough moisture to grow grass.

Now ranchers and farmers must endure the drought, where they are. The drought might be one year or several. It makes it very difficult to stay financially solvent.

As to the future of hunting on the APR. If the day comes that they end hunting, they will be exercising the same prerogative that every private landowner has. Presently they are far more welcoming than many ranchers, when it comes to big game hunting. They may find over a span of years that the hunters who frequent their lands become donors and political allies.

And “they” won’t care

 

[BuzzH]

And “they” won’t care

Totally disagree.

There is nothing APR is doing currently that would leave me to believe they aren't going to continue to allow hunting.

In fact, I would say its just the opposite...they seem to be promoting it at every turn.

APR is doing great things, and IMO, the best thing to happen to Eastern Montana in my lifetime.

 

[hossblur]

They do have some electric fence up. I'm not sure if it runs entirely around the pastures that hold the bison or not, but the elk absolutely do not like the electric fences. APR managers/maintenance are also good about fixing fence that the bison tear down. Also, not sure if the electric fence is a requirement or choice. Being told it is choice.

As a kid my neighbor across the road decided he was going to raise buffalo.

Bull got through the fence, out a Volkswagen bug in a ditch, and smashed a van. Rancher down the road killed it with a 30-30.

That was a fun day as a kid

 

[shootbrownelk]

I dont understand how preserving praire land is trying to end a way of life.

Mega corporations, billionaires and factory farming is what's killing the family farm/ranch.

And you can add the Chinese government buying up American farmland. It shouldn't be allowed.

 

[VikingsGuy]

You're $*)Q!#@$ ridiculous. Wealthy outsiders are buying the housing up almost everywhere and renting it to the people who use to be able to afford to buy it for 2 times the price. I know people who have had their rent increased by 30%.

So cry me a $*)Q!#@$ river about some noble $*)Q!#@$ ranchers that happened to be born into a ranching family. At least they can cash out and live it up in there retirement. I see retired blue collar workers that I know worked hard their whole lives serving their communities doing shitty, menial but nessicary work homeless because of "wealthy outsiders" buying up the housing.

APR let's us play there. Theys better than the rest.

Why is your tone always this way? If you can’t find a better way to express yourself I suggest you find a different place to play - this is not adding value to a forum that tries to keep things on the rails most of the time.

 

[VikingsGuy]

And you can add the Chinese government buying up American farmland. It shouldn't be allowed.

Already been addressed above - total red herring issue.

 

[Eric Albus]

Totally disagree.

There is nothing APR is doing currently that would leave me to believe they aren't going to continue to allow hunting.

In fact, I would say its just the opposite...they seem to be promoting it at every turn.

APR is doing great things, and IMO, the best thing to happen to Eastern Montana in my lifetime.

They will for a while.

That’s because your perception come from the outside looking in.

 

[Eric Albus]

You're $*)Q!#@$ ridiculous. Wealthy outsiders are buying the housing up almost everywhere and renting it to the people who use to be able to afford to buy it for 2 times the price. I know people who have had their rent increased by 30%.

So cry me a $*)Q!#@$ river about some noble $*)Q!#@$ ranchers that happened to be born into a ranching family. At least they can cash out and live it up in there retirement. I see retired blue collar workers that I know worked hard their whole lives serving their communities doing shitty, menial but nessicary work homeless because of "wealthy outsiders" buying up the housing.

APR let's us play there. Theys better than the rest.

This on account of your perception also. Most of the “retired ranchers” I know are still working, lots of them we’ll into their 80’s . Still active and working for our communities. In western Mt this probably isn’t so, most of those places are no longer owned by Montanans.

Homeless? In this country is generally a choice.

You can afford to “play” on the APR, good for you, you’re ahead luxury wise of many “retirement age”, and working age ranchers I know.
Time to recreate is your biggest luxury. Excess money to afford fuel/food your second biggest. Your perception does not show YOU this though, you perceive yourself as having less than those rich “ranchers”.

The sense of entitlement is why this nation needs an awakening. “Play time” is a luxury. Maybe if EARNING enough to eat for the day we’re the priority we’d see a change in attitude.

 

[SAJ-99]

The sense of entitlement is why this nation needs an awakening. “Play time” is a luxury. Maybe if EARNING enough to eat for the day we’re the priority we’d see a change in attitude.

Odd comment from a guide who is part of the organization that drew up the idea of giving his clients a better chance at drawing a permit than the rest of the commoners.

Change is inevitable. I think your general concern over the loss of a “way of life” is valid. I just thing you have misplaced your anger. It’s not the APR driving these people out. Maybe also, are you also worried about losing leases which would have a more direct impact on your “way of life”?

 

[SwaggyD]

Whether you’re for apr or against them, they aren’t going anywhere.

 

[406dn]

The sense of entitlement is why this nation needs an awakening. “Play time” is a luxury. Maybe if EARNING enough to eat for the day we’re the priority we’d see a change in attitude.

I don't think you want to go there.

You'd be hard pressed to come up with a sector of the economy that is more blessed with public subsidy than agriculture.

 

[Straight Arrow]

Whether you’re for apr or against them, they aren’t going anywhere.

Agreed. It seems you are "stuck" with them in your neighborhood as an unpopular and unwanted entity. I can relate as I live in a heretofore quiet little town that is about to suddenly and dramatically at least quadruple in population, dormitory rooms, multifamily dwellings and other accommodations as the employee housing suburb of Big Sky, Yellowstone Club, and Moonlight Basin. We both will be better adjusted if we can determine some way to accept, even embrace, whatever positive aspects the changes will bring.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Excess money to afford fuel/food your second biggest.

Maybe if EARNING enough to eat for the day we’re the priority we’d see a change in attitude.

"[We] non-eastern Montanans have too much money, but don't have a priority of earning enough to eat? I don't follow.

This on account of your perception also. Most of the “retired ranchers” I know are still working, lots of them we’ll into their 80’s . Still active and working for our communities. In western Mt this probably isn’t so, most of those places are no longer owned by Montanans.

Homeless? In this country is generally a choice.

You can afford to “play” on the APR, good for you, you’re ahead luxury wise of many “retirement age”, and working age ranchers I know.
Time to recreate is your biggest luxury. Excess money to afford fuel/food your second biggest. Your perception does not show YOU this though, you perceive yourself as having less than those rich “ranchers”.

The sense of entitlement is why this nation needs an awakening. “Play time” is a luxury. Maybe if EARNING enough to eat for the day we’re the priority we’d see a change in attitude.

In response to this in general, yes people have different things they value, I don't believe there is a right or wrong to it.

My in-laws had a old rancher that leased their property to run his cows. He died working, was in his 80s and was out there every day. When he died his family sold his property for 1.6MM not sure what they got for his animals, but he had a decent number. Let's say $400,000. Point being he could have cashed out for 2MM bought a house in costa rica at 65 and lived on the beach for the rest of his life, but chose not to... that's a choice as well. That wasn't what he wanted, nothing wrong with that.

At the same time his kids didn't want to run the ranch, nothing wrong with that either.

 

[Dirthog67]

This on account of your perception also. Most of the “retired ranchers” I know are still working, lots of them we’ll into their 80’s . Still active and working for our communities. In western Mt this probably isn’t so, most of those places are no longer owned by Montanans.

Homeless? In this country is generally a choice.

You can afford to “play” on the APR, good for you, you’re ahead luxury wise of many “retirement age”, and working age ranchers I know.
Time to recreate is your biggest luxury. Excess money to afford fuel/food your second biggest. Your perception does not show YOU this though, you perceive yourself as having less than those rich “ranchers”.

The sense of entitlement is why this nation needs an awakening. “Play time” is a luxury. Maybe if EARNING enough to eat for the day we’re the priority we’d see a change in attitude.

Minimum wage is 15.49 an hour where I live. A shitty studio apartment costs about 1200 a month if you can find one. Less than 1% vacancy rate here.

You tell me how disabled people, elderly people, single mothers, etc are suppose to afford that. Tell me how a foster kid is suppose age out of the system and figure out how to support themselves in this system.

Sure, if you have parents to buy you a nice little townhouse and pay for college and car insurance on the car they bought you even though they made you pay a token 100 dollars a month towards it.

Hell, even if you worked hard during the summer and saved up while you lived in your nice stable home where food was on the table for dinner and nobody was beating anybody up or getting high.

Our system is seriously messed up. If an 80 year old chooses to work their million dollar ranch instead of sell out thats their choice and it doesn't mean the elderly homeless people I see every day, a lot of them veterans are "choosing" to be homeless.

You have no idea. You supply a luxury to the wealthy for a living. I provide survival to the disadvantaged for a living.