American prairie. What's the issue?

[SwaggyD]

Minimum wage is 15.49 an hour where I live. A shitty studio apartment costs about 1200 a month if you can find one. Less than 1% vacancy rate here.

You tell me how disabled people, elderly people, single mothers, etc are suppose to afford that. Tell me how a foster kid is suppose age out of the system and figure out how to support themselves in this system.

Sure, if you have parents to buy you a nice little townhouse and pay for college and car insurance on the car they bought you even though they made you pay a token 100 dollars a month towards it.

Hell, even if you worked hard during the summer and saved up while you lived in your nice stable home where food was on the table for dinner and nobody was beating anybody up or getting high.

Our system is seriously messed up. If an 80 year old chooses to work their million dollar ranch instead of sell out thats their choice and it doesn't mean the elderly homeless people I see every day, a lot of them veterans are "choosing" to be homeless.

You have no idea. You supply a luxury to the wealthy for a living. I provide survival to the disadvantaged for a living.

Back to topic..... again......

One buddy that lives in southern Phillips County told me a story of a cow bison walking up to the electric fence, looked at it, and just hopped over it. Apparently they are a lot more athletic than cattle. That would be cool to see.

 

[tjones]

There is a fairly good size bison operation just south of Missoula, right along highway 93. Like right next to 4 very busy lanes.

I have not been right up to the fence but driving by it looks like a normal 4 strand.

I have never heard or seen a bison out of the fence and as busy as the road is if one tried to cross it would be a real mess.

 

[DFS]

Back to topic..... again......

One buddy that lives in southern Phillips County told me a story of a cow bison walking up to the electric fence, looked at it, and just hopped over it. Apparently they are a lot more athletic than cattle. That would be cool to see.

Several years ago a bison was “taken care of” east of miles city. Board of livestock suspects it came from South Dakota. A fence doesn’t mean much to a bison unless it’s a fence like what is around Theodore Roosevelt Park.

 

[Straight Arrow]

There is a fairly good size bison operation just south of Missoula, right along highway 93. Like right next to 4 very busy lanes.

I have not been right up to the fence but driving by it looks like a normal 4 strand.

I have never heard or seen a bison out of the fence and as busy as the road is if one tried to cross it would be a real mess.

Must be different bison in eastern Montana. The Flying D bison and others in SW Montana seem happy to stay in their pastures and it's a rarity for one to visit a neighbor's land.

 

[Ben Lamb]

In fairness to TR, he wasn’t a very good cowboy, but as a rancher he was fairing alright, up to the great winter of ‘86-87.

There has always been change in the wind, especially for Eastern Mt.

The bison were wiped out and natives were stripped of their nation.

Room was made for the big cattle expansion to feed a growing demand.

Winter 1886-7 crippled the big cow outfits who civilized the prairie.

Jim Hills railroad and hoards of optimistic homesteaders flooded the prairie, with plows and barb wire in hand. These optimistic folks were soon stone broke and hungry, leaving behind leaving scars on the land to prove they once were here. A few hardy ones made a living and stayed, slowly selling out to those a little more fortunate or more successful.
As we look around now I see some “farm operations “ preparing to plant 40,000 acres, the “really big outfits” planting in excess of 100k acres. Good size cow outfits running 2500-10,000 head. Numbers unimaginable in my youth.
So the inescapable truth of it all is change has always been upon us. The family ranch/farm operations are about to as obsolete as obsidian arrowheads.

I think everyone was considered a good rancher when the grass was tall and the weather cooperated. He made a fairly decent lawman as well during his ND days.

I don't know how to solve the issue of loss of young ag families, as I do think that's a real and serious issue not only for the future of rural areas, but for food security across the world too. In some sense, I guess technological advancements are just as much to blame as anything else but the barrier to entry due to land prices from amenity buyers seems to be a systemic problem across the US, not just in rural MT for ag land, or western MT for housing (or ag land - there's still a lot of livestock operations & some good farms too).

To the bolded part: Yes, it does, but how we act together helps define what that change looks like, and ensures that it lifts all boats, and not just those with their hands of the levers of power.

 

[DFS]

Must be different bison in eastern Montana. The Flying D bison and others in SW Montana seem happy to stay in their pastures and it's a rarity for one to visit a neighbor's land.

Several people who I trust, watched it hop right over a fence. Any ideas how it could end up in the middle of one of the biggest private ranches east of miles city?

 

[Straight Arrow]

Any ideas how it could end up in the middle of one of the biggest private ranches east of miles city?

Black helicopters?

 

[Ben Lamb]

Several people who I trust, watched it hop right over a fence. Any ideas how it could end up in the middle of one of the biggest private ranches east of miles city?

Generally, Bison escape is low but it does happen. Foolish to think that it doesn't. Bison are large animals that were evolved to travel long distances in large family groups. So why would anyone be surprised to see a bison travel a long distance?

Most bison fencing I've seen is 4 strand wildlife friendly with a hot wire somewhere in the line. I've also seen the large panel fencing like they have down around Wright, WY where nothing is going to to get through it except maybe a rabbit or a horny toad.

 

[mtmuley]

I've seen what elk do to fences. Just sayin. mtmuley

 

[SwaggyD]

Generally, Bison escape is low but it does happen. Foolish to think that it doesn't. Bison are large animals that were evolved to travel long distances in large family groups. So why would anyone be surprised to see a bison travel a long distance?

Most bison fencing I've seen is 4 strand wildlife friendly with a hot wire somewhere in the line. I've also seen the large panel fencing like they have down around Wright, WY where nothing is going to to get through it except maybe a rabbit or a horny toad.

Oh yeah, cattle escape as well. I was more in awe of it just hopping an electric fence. There are miles of electric fence on apr that are intertwined with 3 strand. 4 wires total, 2nd from the top is hot, bottom one is smooth.

edited to correct my errors of single wire electric fence. confirmed they are 4 strand fences. even more impressive a bison is just hopping over a 4 strand.

 

[406dn]

I expect that single strand hot wire fences are sufficient for interior cross fencing. They are easily and inexpensively adjusted to move animals to different areas.

A neighbor fences his dozen or so horses with a single strand of hot barbed wire. It looks sketchy to me but the horses stay where he wants them.

 

[Randi]

Generally, Bison escape is low but it does happen. Foolish to think that it doesn't. Bison are large animals that were evolved to travel long distances in large family groups. So why would anyone be surprised to see a bison travel a long distance?

Most bison fencing I've seen is 4 strand wildlife friendly with a hot wire somewhere in the line. I've also seen the large panel fencing like they have down around Wright, WY where nothing is going to to get through it except maybe a rabbit or a horny toad.

I spent a summer in North Dakota and the fencing there was -- wood and metal posts, with woven wire 6 foot plus, high. No hot wire or barb.

And occasionally one would still get out.

The grass was maintained very well. Controlled fires, herd size, spraying, water,

I don't know how to solve the issue of loss of young ag families, as I do think that's a real and serious issue not only for the future of rural areas, but for food security across the world too. In some sense, I guess technological advancements are just as much to blame as anything else but the barrier to entry due to land prices from amenity buyers seems to be a systemic problem across the US, not just in rural MT for ag land, or western MT for housing (or ag land - there's still a lot of livestock operations & some good farms too).

It is a lot of work and being one of the "young" ag farmer/rancher, very few of us are willing to put in the manuel labor that it requires. However, there are some of us out there, but unless we win the lotto or inherit the farm/ranch, it is hard for a young person to buy a ranch. If you go to college and find a job that pays well, you are reluctant to give up that income ( especially if you have started a family ), as well as the years --college/company-- that you have invested. I will probably do both with all my excess income going to and into a farm for three reasons . 1. I love it. 2. I want my children when I have some,, to experience the farm life, even if it is on weekends and summer vacations. 3. when the children have left home, I would be able to move back onto the property at some time and live their full time.. "Maybe" my grandparents will leave me their farm, but they have not said they would and I have not asked. ---Hinted, yes--Ask, No

 

[Deleted member 28227]

It is a lot of work and being one of the "young" ag farmer/rancher, very few of us are willing to put in the manuel labor that it requires. However, there are some of us out there, but unless we win the lotto or inherit the farm/ranch, it is hard for a young person to buy a ranch. If you go to college and find a job that pays well, you are reluctant to give up that income ( especially if you have started a family ), as well as the years --college/company-- that you have invested. I will probably do both with all my excess income going to and into a farm for three reasons . 1. I love it. 2. I want my children when I have some,, to experience the farm life, even if it is on weekends and summer vacations. 3. when the children have left home, I would be able to move back onto the property at some time and live their full time.. "Maybe" my grandparents will leave me their farm, but they have not said they would and I have not asked. ---Hinted, yes--Ask, No

Any idea on what it would cost to buy a place in MT v. Missouri that was self sustaining, i.e. you didn't have to work a job in addition to the farm/ranch?

I was curious on upfront capital requirements but couldn't find much, was guessing like $1.5MM Missouri v. $10MM in Montana?

 

[Eric Albus]

I expect that single strand hot wire fences are sufficient for interior cross fencing. They are easily and inexpensively adjusted to move animals to different areas.

A neighbor fences his dozen or so horses with a single strand of hot barbed wire. It looks sketchy to me but the horses stay where he wants them.

A horse will stay in with a single strand of baling twine as a barrier.

 

[SwaggyD]

 

[Schaaf]

Just a point of clarification: the APR has about 4.5 miles of 3 strand electric wire. No single wire anywhere.

 

[Eric Albus]

Several people who I trust, watched it hop right over a fence. Any ideas how it could end up in the middle of one of the biggest private ranches east of miles city?

We’ve had rogue bison show in in NE Mt as well. I “harvested” one 15yrs ago that escaped from a neighbors Buffalo fenced pasture 25 miles away. I know guys who raise bison and have had to put down 20plus animals at a time on account of breaking out. It’s just a fact of life when dealing with a wild animal.

The APR has/will deal with it also.

I deal with it every year with domestic bulls. Usually by the 10th of May each year the testosterone starts flowing and they become prone to jail breaks(walking thru/fighting thru barb wire). Then they’re trailed up and put in “prison”(corrals at headquarters).

 

[Bambistew]

I think everyone was considered a good rancher when the grass was tall and the weather cooperated. He made a fairly decent lawman as well during his ND days.

I don't know how to solve the issue of loss of young ag families, as I do think that's a real and serious issue not only for the future of rural areas, but for food security across the world too. In some sense, I guess technological advancements are just as much to blame as anything else but the barrier to entry due to land prices from amenity buyers seems to be a systemic problem across the US, not just in rural MT for ag land, or western MT for housing (or ag land - there's still a lot of livestock operations & some good farms too).

To the bolded part: Yes, it does, but how we act together helps define what that change looks like, and ensures that it lifts all boats, and not just those with their hands of the levers of power.

It would be near impossible to find a piece of property in MT that could be purchased and operated at a profit or even break even a ranch/farm today. It hasn't been possible in a generation or two, IMO. Those who have profitable operations own their land outright (through inheritance), and if they are doing well its because their heirs canceled that debt. Of course every operation is different, but I'd wager to bet that most still barely break even. The ones I'm closely familiar with barely make, most have operating loans. Those huge ranches that Bigfin listed, could never pay for themselves as a ranch, the way they pay is through appreciation.

Ranching and ag land will continue to be put into this position unless something changes.

 

[SwaggyD]

Just a point of clarification: the APR has about 4.5 miles of 3 strand electric wire. No single wire anywhere.

Partially correct - I edited post 290 to reflect the correct layout of their electric fence.

 

[406dn]

A horse will stay in with a single strand of baling twine as a barrier.

Not unlike when the circus would picket their elephants in each new town. I often picket my horses when camping with them. It is a bluff they seldom call.

Years ago at a field trial for pointing dogs, a neighbor's horses got out somehow and came running thru the camp. Then the pickets popped out of the ground as the picketed horses decided to join the band running thru camp.