American Prairie Reserve - Nothing new

[TheTone]

The cheapest bison hunt I’ve ever applied for was through APR. Sure wish I had drawn

Based on the amount of hay I see get tossed, left in fields, sold super cheap late in the year or burned each year I don’t think the US is hurting for production

 

[Ben Lamb]

Thanks Ben!

81-1-101. Definitions. Unless the context requires otherwise, in Title 81, the following definitions apply:

(1) (a) "Bison" means domestic bison or feral bison.

(b) The term does not include:

(i) wild buffalo or wild bison; or

(ii) for the purposes of chapter 9, buffalo.

This is the part you want to cite:

(6) "Wild buffalo" or "wild bison" means a bison that:

(a) has not been reduced to captivity;

(b) has never been subject to the per capita fee under 15-24-921;

(c) has never been owned by a person; and

(d) is not the offspring of a bison that has been subject to the per capita fee under 15-24-921.

AP's bison are all domestic by this definition since they have all
1.) Been reduced to captivity
2.) been subject to the per cap fee
3.) are owned by a corporation (AP is a Corporation)
4.) Are the offspring of previously domestic bison.

 

[Gila]

Oh yeah, I forgot to address the property tax vs. income tax. You must not have looked at many rancher's income tax returns. I hate to say it but based on their tax returns you would have to assume that nearly all of these properties were operating on a not for profit basis before and after being acquired by an actual nonprofit organization.

There is a reason they are selling out, it is VERY difficult to make money raising cattle.

I don’t know what planet you are on but where I reside, cattle make money.

 

[TOGIE]

I don’t know what planet you are on but where I reside, cattle make money.

spend a dollar make a dollar. money made, technically, i guess...

 

[npaden]

If you are running them on generational land that you don't have to pay interest on, you can earn a living raising cattle on range land.

The people making money on cattle tend to be the feed lots and processing plants. Or very large commercial operations with a high animal density. Not the type of land we are talking about with the APR.

 

[Gila]

The cheapest bison hunt I’ve ever applied for was through APR. Sure wish I had drawn

Based on the amount of hay I see get tossed, left in fields, sold super cheap late in the year or burned each year I don’t think the US is hurting for production

Where you are maybe. Here on the open range hay is like gold. I’m too embarrassed to say how much I paid for the last load of alfalfa hay. Like I have stated multiple times, because of drought conditions in quite a few areas in the US; CRP land is being grazed and/or are in hay production.

 

[atlas]

AP does have slaughter & they allow the take of bison in order to manage their herd. Their plans are to grow their herd to a certain number, much how any other livestock producer would grow the genetics and herd size to fit their landscape when starting out.

The genetics behind the AP herd require a slower pace of growth and replacement, so you'll see a lot of dead animals being processed, sent to schools for lunches, donated, etc. That excludes their bison harvest program that allows for over 30 bison to be removed from their herd each year, with 5 of those opportunities going to disabled veterans.

I find it a bit disingenuous to claim that CRP land is being taken out of production because AP doesn't want to use that contract for emergency haying or grazing and then claiming that they are reducing food production. One could easily argue that without AP, many young ranchers wouldn't be able to have a start because they can't afford the lease on other properties or their own families can't afford to lease at a reduced rate.
The economics of Agriculture are what they are, and AP has a role to play in both the positive and negative space but honestly, the argument that they're taking land out of production is belied by the fact that they pay twice the AUM rate on the per capita tax, and they still pay property taxes while ostensibly increasing participation in ag from younger people.

While their purchasing of land does inflate the overall appraised value, it's also silly to think that they're not getting the best deal that they can for each property they purchase.

So while AP isn't all sunshine & apple juice, it's far from the boogerman you continue to make it out to be. In fact, I'd say if we want to do a direct comparison to the billionaires who are not seriously raising cattle, you'd find a much larger economic impact from AP to local communities leading to better jobs & higher wages than through the Billionaire class that UPOM seems to cater too.

I didn't want to be the first one to point out that they allow for bison harvest even though it's a great point. I'd like to go on a cow shoot one day haha. But maybe if AP has 20,000 bison in two decades it won't be that hard.

 

[Gila]

This is the part you want to cite:



AP's bison are all domestic by this definition since they have all
1.) Been reduced to captivity
2.) been subject to the per cap fee
3.) are owned by a corporation (AP is a Corporation)
4.) Are the offspring of previously domestic bison.

You are calling apples oranges. I guess we will just have to see what the Montana Courts decide. Obviously the Legislature intended to exclude bison that were not meant for agricultural use. And that is where the Courts will go with it. As far as BLM is concerned, the DOIOHA will have to make a decision on a Reconsideration. If the BLM loses the reconsideration then AP will have the option to go to a Federal Appeals Court. And if the BLM wins the Reconsideration then the aggrieved parties can go to a Federal Appeals Court. I am assuming that the losing parties have already filed a Reconsideration. The BLM decision is by no means final and this contention will go on for years no doubt.

 

[Ben Lamb]

You are calling apples oranges. I guess we will just have to see what the Montana Courts decide. Obviously the Legislature intended to exclude bison that were not meant for agricultural use. And that is where the Courts will go with it. As far as BLM is concerned, the DOIOHA will have to make a decision on a Reconsideration. If the BLM loses the reconsideration then AP will have the option to go to a Federal Appeals Court. And if the BLM wins the Reconsideration then the aggrieved parties can go to a Federal Appeals Court. I am assuming that the losing parties have already filed a Reconsideration. The BLM decision is by no means final and this contention will go on for years no doubt.

I fought this bill for a decade because it's so poorly worded and would actually play into the hands of the people trying to get bison listed under the ESA. The MT legislature decided to pass this bill in 2021 in order to make all bison outside of YNP domestic livestock. That is the express purpose of this legislation and it is the express intent of the people who fought to pass it.

Your issue of definition is not with me, it's with the legislature and governor who signed a bill that expressly made all AP bison livestock (although they already were) and with the crowd that urged it's passage. AP's bison are, according the law of the state of Montana, domestic livestock. Always have been, always will be. AP pays the per capita fee on every bison they have. You don't pay a per cap fee on wildlife. The fact that Montana's Attorney General can't figure this out is comical at best.

 

[Gila]

AP does have slaughter & they allow the take of bison in order to manage their herd. Their plans are to grow their herd to a certain number, much how any other livestock producer would grow the genetics and herd size to fit their landscape when starting out.

The genetics behind the AP herd require a slower pace of growth and replacement, so you'll see a lot of dead animals being processed, sent to schools for lunches, donated, etc. That excludes their bison harvest program that allows for over 30 bison to be removed from their herd each year, with 5 of those opportunities going to disabled veterans.

I find it a bit disingenuous to claim that CRP land is being taken out of production because AP doesn't want to use that contract for emergency haying or grazing and then claiming that they are reducing food production. One could easily argue that without AP, many young ranchers wouldn't be able to have a start because they can't afford the lease on other properties or their own families can't afford to lease at a reduced rate.
The economics of Agriculture are what they are, and AP has a role to play in both the positive and negative space but honestly, the argument that they're taking land out of production is belied by the fact that they pay twice the AUM rate on the per capita tax, and they still pay property taxes while ostensibly increasing participation in ag from younger people.

While their purchasing of land does inflate the overall appraised value, it's also silly to think that they're not getting the best deal that they can for each property they purchase.

So while AP isn't all sunshine & apple juice, it's far from the boogerman you continue to make it out to be. In fact, I'd say if we want to do a direct comparison to the billionaires who are not seriously raising cattle, you'd find a much larger economic impact from AP to local communities leading to better jobs & higher wages than through the Billionaire class that UPOM seems to cater too.

Good arguements to be made and they will have to be made. AP doesn’t intend to make a profit from their herds (they are a non-profit) and a very small percentage of their overall herd will end up on someone’s table. That takes us back to the best use of the land.

I don’t understand this: “The genetics behind the AP herd require a slower pace of growth and replacement, so you'll see a lot of dead animals being processed,”

Are you aware of the recent Texas A&M study? In 2003 or 04 the Catalina Island Conservancy sent 150 buffalo to Rosebud Res in SD. The buffalo were supposed to be free of Bovine DNA. As it turned out, they were found to have bovine DNA. Not only that, but they were so inbred that they had health problems. Smaller in size and low in weight, high calf mortality, diseases. They also had behavior issues like walking in a tight circle.

Scotty Phelps saved the buffalo from extinction but he was a cattle rancher. A few cattlemen in Texas actually crossbred with cattle to see if they could get a better product. There is no herd of American Bison that is free of Bovine DNA.

 

[Gerald Martin]

There is no herd of American Bison that is free of Bovine DNA.



I call BS.

 

[Gila]

There is no herd of American Bison that is free of Bovine DNA.



I call BS.

Are you familiar with what policy makers call “junk” science? Happens all of the time. One side of the aisle goes out and pays for a data model that supports their position and the other side supplies their data model to counter. Pretty much everyone is accepting the Texas A&M study here though. INDEPENDENT Peer reviewed studies trump the “junk” science every time:

New Research Documents Domestic Cattle Genetics In Modern Bison Herds

A new study published in Scientific Reports has revealed the strongest evidence to date that all bison in North America carry multiple small, but clearly

vetmed.tamu.edu

 

[Ben Lamb]

Good arguements to be made and they will have to be made. AP doesn’t intend to make a profit from their herds (they are a non-profit) and a very small percentage of their overall herd will end up on someone’s table. That takes us back to the best use of the land.

I don’t understand this: “The genetics behind the AP herd require a slower pace of growth and replacement, so you'll see a lot of dead animals being processed,”

Are you aware of the recent Texas A&M study? In 2003 or 04 the Catalina Island Conservancy sent 150 buffalo to Rosebud Res in SD. The buffalo were supposed to be free of Bovine DNA. As it turned out, they were found to have bovine DNA. Not only that, but they were so inbred that they had health problems. Smaller in size and low in weight, high calf mortality, diseases. They also had behavior issues like walking in a tight circle.

Scotty Phelps saved the buffalo from extinction but he was a cattle rancher. A few cattlemen in Texas actually crossbred with cattle to see if they could get a better product. There is no herd of American Bison that is free of Bovine DNA.

I'm not a fan of blanket statements because I think the science continues to show multiple results on the bolded part. This study from A&M tends to reinforce your point, yet many very credible bison biologists disagree with the sentiment due to a 99% similarity in DNA between both species. The American Bison Association has some thoughts on the A&M study as well: https://bisoncentral.com/advantage-item/genetic-integrity-of-bison/

For AP - they are keeping their genetics tight so as to maintain the highest level of purity, that means they're not adding a ton of new animals from other herds in Canada or elsewhere, so they're selective in how they cull and what they allow to be taken, preserving their genetics, that was my point behind that statement. Poor wording on my part & you have my apologies for that.

Scotty Phillips is whom you are thinking of, not Phelps. Don't forget YNP's bison can be traced by to Charles Goodnight & The Pablo-Allard herd.

It's all fascinating subject, but in the end it's all academic.

 

[Southern Elk]

If you think you can pay thousands of dollars per acre for land that takes 20 acres per cow and ever turn a profit, you might need to revisit math class. Prices in the west are such that no one will make money off of ag land unless it was given to them. That leaves the billionaires with expendable income and organizations like AP. I will take AP any day. I signed up to donate last night. Thanks for nudging me Gila. You are helping the AP more than you know.

 

[FI460]

Good arguements to be made and they will have to be made. AP doesn’t intend to make a profit from their herds (they are a non-profit) and a very small percentage of their overall herd will end up on someone’s table. That takes us back to the best use of the land.
...

Best use of the land in your opinion? It's their private property. You're not far off from waltzing into a sheep operation and telling them they ought to be raising cattle since Americans eat more beef.

There is no herd of American Bison that is free of Bovine DNA.

Why is this important? Seems as if you're staunch in your belief that there are no bison free of bovine DNA. Awful big burden of proof on that claim. If you're right does that mean we stop any bison rehabilitation work and send them all off to the slaughter house based on their little bit of cow DNA? I don't think so.

 

[BackofBeyond]

AP doesn’t intend to make a profit from their herds (they are a non-profit)...

Just because something is a non-profit, doesn't mean it can't make money. Just means that those profits aren't distributed back to an owner or shareholder. Profits can and should be earned by some non-profits, the then profits can be invested back into their own growth and capital expenditures. Happens with non-profit and not-for-profit hospital systems all the time.

 

[Irrelevant]

I’m too embarrassed to say

if only...
Don't get our hopes up.

 

[Gila]

If you think you can pay thousands of dollars per acre for land that takes 20 acres per cow and ever turn a profit, you might need to revisit math class. Prices in the west are such that no one will make money off of ag land unless it was given to them. That leaves the billionaires with expendable income and organizations like AP. I will take AP any day. I signed up to donate last night. Thanks for nudging me Gila. You are helping the AP more than you know.

The range land doesn’t go for thousands....where are you from? A few hundred maybe.

 

[Scott85]

 

[rtraverdavis]

I think it’s time to interrupt all you hosers trying to convince Gila of something he ain’t willing to be convinced of with evidence, logic, and reasoning, and interject something we can all agree on:

It’s a damn great song.