A Navy Veteran’s perspective on racism

[Randi]

Triggered much? Please don't vomit all that on me. I was trying to help her be more comfortable in the outdoors by realizing its in her own control. Fear is not our friend. None of us can control the actions of others but we can be prepared for possibilities. I offered some self help solutions that actually work and nothing more. If she has a problem with that then she can sound off herself. Be safe and kind.

why use the words "please dont vomit all that on me", especially the word "vomit", as if her opinion or response was vile in some way. You may not agree with her, but her opinion and post is not and was not "vomit"

I believe she addressed the issue very well. You may disagree and can disagree without being disagreeable.

If your attempt was to silence her, you picked the wrong female.

.

 

[Hunting Wife]

Triggered much?

Nope, just hangry. Don’t really care what you think anyway, more just pointing out the perfect example of the problem you so eloquently provided, for those people who are trying to understand the types of biases minorities in the outdoors experience.

I’m a Hispanic female. I’m extremely lucky to have white men in my life who have been supportive, encouraging, caring, understanding, thoughtful, respectful, and generous with their knowledge and time. I wouldn’t be a hunter without them. Based on my interactions on this forum and most of the posts on this thread, I am encouraged because the vast majority of the guys here seem to be that kind of man. They might not be perfect, but they don’t pretend to have all the answers, are unafraid to reflect on themselves, to learn more about the things they don’t understand, and are driven to do better where they can. It’s those men that will make a difference for the outdoor community.

 

[azelkhntr]

The assertion that racism is systemic is in my view false. I'm not seeing it everywhere I go. The guy being a jerk and using a racial slur against another man fly fishing is just that, a jerk. He deserved to get a punch in the snoot for it. Who does that? Nobody I know. That example doesn't mean the entire society is responsible. He is and no one else. Does racism exist? Yes it does. Is it societal and systemic? No its not. Its the actions of individuals. Everybody take a deep breath and look around yourselves. Ill bet you haven't personally seen any overt acts of racism in a long time either. If you see it call that person out for it but don't condemn society at large. How's that helping you, your community or anyone else? My SIL was attacked by 3 black teens in Wa. State a week ago as they were looting the downtown Crate & Barrel. Do I blame all blacks for that? No. It was the acts of individuals caught up in the mob mentality. Was that a hate crime? The vid says yes. Luckily they've been apprehended and charged so we'll see. Gotta go; its happy hour. Salud!

 

[Glockster]

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/13/us/atlanta-police-shooting-rayshard-brooks.htm

Hopefully this incident doesn’t fire up a new round of riots. But you couldn’t of asked for much worse timing. It does seem a bit concerning to me in more than one way that the mayors already calling for the police officer to be fired.

 

[JLS]

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/13/us/atlanta-police-shooting-rayshard-brooks.htm

Hopefully this incident doesn’t fire up a new round of riots. But you couldn’t of asked for much worse timing. It does seem a bit concerning to me in more than one way that the mayors already calling for the police officer to be fired.

I saw this. In all reality, this one sounds like it may be a very justifiable shooting. Unfortunately, there is very poor understanding about the legal use of lethal force in our country. Very poor.

 

[Duck-Slayer]

Black 2 parent households have a 5% poverty rate.
Black 1 parent households have a 30% poverty rate.
White 1 parent households have 20% poverty rate.

Key to staying out of poverty is to get and stay married.
77% of Black children are born out of wedlock.

Graduate HS
Get a full time job
Avoid teen pregnancy

Do those three and life is much easier, regardless of race.

Exactly! Seriously look at the statistics.... a lot of stuff has to change but imo it needs to start with us and the minority’s working together, not fight each other, burning, looting, etc....
Matt

 

[Horse]

Very sobering read. It really drives home the reality that the life a person of color lives is so much different than the one I enjoy.

The victim shaming that is used to justify a horrific act sickens me. There is NOTHING George Floyd did either on that day or any day previous that justifies those police officers coldly killing him in public. They were as relaxed as when they are a coffee break while they slowly squeezed the life out of him, for nearly nine minutes. Just a short coffee break. The only thing left was to file a false report. It is not hard to see where the evil resides on that Minneapolis street.

 

[Saranac84]

Although I'm not a regular poster on here, I regularly lurk and I imagine that I'm one of the few black members of this forum. Reading this thread over the past few days has been eye opening; both uplifting and deeply depressing. My spirits have been boosted seeing a newfound interest and engagement in regards to racism, police brutality, etc. I've also been shocked at the downright refusal to believe that racism exists in meaningful ways in our nations. Even more offensive is the anecdotal photo or story about the "black guy I'm friends with."

I'm not looking for any sympathy by posting here but I think some perspective might be helpful. I live a privileged life- great family, job, education, the time and funds to hunt/fish across the west- my parents busted their asses to give my two brothers and I the opportunities we needed to succeed in America. My story is the exception in many black communities. As a child I was taught, and I will always believe that this is the greatest nation the world has ever know. That doesn't mean that I can't acknowledge the shortcomings that exist. I'm left aghast at the notion that "systemic racism" doesn't exist. Who are we kidding? My father was born in the segregated south less than 75 years ago. State mandated racism isn't some relic from the 1800s. To pretend that there aren't remnants of those systems would be naive.

I have spent enough time in rural, predominantly white America to know that most people are good and well-intentioned. That doesn't mean that black men don't live with additional risks because of the color of their skin, whether it's law enforcement or the general public. Refer to George Floyd and Ahmaud Arbery. There's work to be done in the black community but please, don't deny the reality of our nation's history and the role that race has played.

 

[rtraverdavis]

Thanks for speaking out @Saranac84. Glad you’re here with us.

 

[Woodrow F Call]

Exactly! Seriously look at the statistics.... a lot of stuff has to change but imo it needs to start with us and the minority’s working together, not fight each other, burning, looting, etc....
Matt

Reflect on why those statistics are the way they are. If the minority community was truly integrated and treated equal, you would expect little to no difference between whites and minority stats. The stats show this isn't the case. The subjugation of minorities for decades created and unequal playing field that needs to be corrected. Are things better in that respect than 1920? Sure, but the numbers show the effect still lingers.

 

[3855WIN]

Although I'm not a regular poster on here, I regularly lurk and I imagine that I'm one of the few black members of this forum. Reading this thread over the past few days has been eye opening; both uplifting and deeply depressing. My spirits have been boosted seeing a newfound interest and engagement in regards to racism, police brutality, etc. I've also been shocked at the downright refusal to believe that racism exists in meaningful ways in our nations. Even more offensive is the anecdotal photo or story about the "black guy I'm friends with."

I'm not looking for any sympathy by posting here but I think some perspective might be helpful. I live a privileged life- great family, job, education, the time and funds to hunt/fish across the west- my parents busted their asses to give my two brothers and I the opportunities we needed to succeed in America. My story is the exception in many black communities. As a child I was taught, and I will always believe that this is the greatest nation the world has ever know. That doesn't mean that I can't acknowledge the shortcomings that exist. I'm left aghast at the notion that "systemic racism" doesn't exist. Who are we kidding? My father was born in the segregated south less than 75 years ago. State mandated racism isn't some relic from the 1800s. To pretend that there aren't remnants of those systems would be naive.

I have spent enough time in rural, predominantly white America to know that most people are good and well-intentioned. That doesn't mean that black men don't live with additional risks because of the color of their skin, whether it's law enforcement or the general public. Refer to George Floyd and Ahmaud Arbery. There's work to be done in the black community but please, don't deny the reality of our nation's history and the role that race has played.

The topic from the article is racism in the outdoors. I was presenting an alternative viewpoint by showing a pic of my son with a Black friend fly fishing. Fly fishing was part of the story.
Sorry if you don’t like “Black guy I share the outdoors with” photos and stories. Many of our board members live in areas where they’ll have very little interaction with Black Americans. That isn’t the case for me. Black/White interactions are an everyday part of life and almost always positive.

If you don’t mind, share with us the racism you have experienced in the outdoors? We all should feel welcome and comfortable using our lands and waters.

 

[Trial153]

Although I'm not a regular poster on here, I regularly lurk and I imagine that I'm one of the few black members of this forum. Reading this thread over the past few days has been eye opening; both uplifting and deeply depressing. My spirits have been boosted seeing a newfound interest and engagement in regards to racism, police brutality, etc. I've also been shocked at the downright refusal to believe that racism exists in meaningful ways in our nations. Even more offensive is the anecdotal photo or story about the "black guy I'm friends with."

I'm not looking for any sympathy by posting here but I think some perspective might be helpful. I live a privileged life- great family, job, education, the time and funds to hunt/fish across the west- my parents busted their asses to give my two brothers and I the opportunities we needed to succeed in America. My story is the exception in many black communities. As a child I was taught, and I will always believe that this is the greatest nation the world has ever know. That doesn't mean that I can't acknowledge the shortcomings that exist. I'm left aghast at the notion that "systemic racism" doesn't exist. Who are we kidding? My father was born in the segregated south less than 75 years ago. State mandated racism isn't some relic from the 1800s. To pretend that there aren't remnants of those systems would be naive.

I have spent enough time in rural, predominantly white America to know that most people are good and well-intentioned. That doesn't mean that black men don't live with additional risks because of the color of their skin, whether it's law enforcement or the general public. Refer to George Floyd and Ahmaud Arbery. There's work to be done in the black community but please, don't deny the reality of our nation's history and the role that race has played.

great post

 

[Panda Bear]

The topic from the article is racism in the outdoors. I was presenting an alternative viewpoint by showing a pic of my son with a Black friend fly fishing. Fly fishing was part of the story.
Sorry if you don’t like “Black guy I share the outdoors with” photos and stories. Many of our board members live in areas where they’ll have very little interaction with Black Americans. That isn’t the case for me. Black/White interactions are an everyday part of life and almost always positive.

If you don’t mind, share with us the racism you have experienced in the outdoors? We all should feel welcome and comfortable using our lands and waters.

I bet she could find her way to the nearest liquor store with out a compass ( when they decided they wanted liquor )

I am sure every Buck in her village has had her ( a not so subtle suggestion that I have sex with those I am guiding )

The last thing in the world I want is a squaw to guide me

You want a bigger tip ( for guiding ) show more skin

and much, much worse.

I do not guide any more as some got aggressive and physical

__________________

I am simply answering your question. I have a great life, a happy life, and the positives in my life far outweigh the negatives, but racism does exist in the outdoors

 

[3855WIN]

Panda, in short, that sucks. I’ve had a woman wrangler on a trip before. Outworked the men. Never had a woman guide, but wouldn’t bother me at all. Thanks for sharing.

 

[diamond hitch]

I think the issue still comes back to culture and conditioning. For those of us who have lived most of our lives in the rural west, I really haven't seen much if any racism. However my exposure to the rest of the country has certainly shown ample conditioning within cultures of racism, sexism and segregation.

I don't think the government can mandate that to change. That will have to come individual by individual. In those communities that it is the strongest, it has been developed by generations over time. Watching some of the mess in the middle east it is unlikely that they could tell you what or when they started hating or distrusting each other.

I recently had a neighbor from Ohio. He was a retired US Marshal. Without a doubt the most irritating objectional individual I ever met. My conditioning is to be cautious of folks from Ohio. It appears there is a problem there or was it the U S Marshal training.

Attitudes and personalities are all part of our cultures which are local for the most part. Change / correction will not be easy or maybe even possible. All I can hope is that when you come towards my life you can leave most of those objectional attitudes and personalities at your former location.

 

[Duck-Slayer]

Reflect on why those statistics are the way they are. If the minority community was truly integrated and treated equal, you would expect little to no difference between whites and minority stats. The stats show this isn't the case. The subjugation of minorities for decades created and unequal playing field that needs to be corrected. Are things better in that respect than 1920? Sure, but the numbers show the effect still lingers.

I don’t think all of it has to do with racism towards minority’s. Make stupid choices, win stupid prizes.... I know there needs to be change, but change has to happen on both sides. I’m sure a multi million dollar company say Amazon wants a 5 time repeated prison criminal working for them. That’s not racist, that’s smart business, and it reflects..... period! I know it’s hard to fathom for some that business don’t want to hire criminals, and I’m not saying there all criminals. I know a lot of Latino persons here in Idaho that are good people and work hard! I’ve traveled being in the military and have African American friends etc. but they chose not to be a statistic. I know awesome Kurdish people’s a lot of our translators were great people. Again stop doing stupid stuff! Make good choices even when it’s hard!
Matt

 

[Randi]

Support, or the lack thereof , of racism and sexism can be varied.

Some things are possibly to subtle ( or can be ) for the average person who are not confronted with it on a daily basis, to notice.

Saranac 84, Hunting Wife, MKelkhuntress and Panda Bear, thanks for sharing.

 

[Saranac84]

The topic from the article is racism in the outdoors. I was presenting an alternative viewpoint by showing a pic of my son with a Black friend fly fishing. Fly fishing was part of the story.
Sorry if you don’t like “Black guy I share the outdoors with” photos and stories. Many of our board members live in areas where they’ll have very little interaction with Black Americans. That isn’t the case for me. Black/White interactions are an everyday part of life and almost always positive.

If you don’t mind, share with us the racism you have experienced in the outdoors? We all should feel welcome and comfortable using our lands and waters.

Would you like me to tell you that I've been called the N-word? Or how many times I've been told that black people don't fly fish or hunt? Or any other number of incidents that are related to my skin color? I don't really see the need to rehash but rest assured, it's happened.

As I mentioned in my first post, I live a blessed life. My "class" provides me with comforts and opportunities that not every person of color has. I'm not afraid to belly up at the bar in Hungry Horse, MT after a day of fishing or knock on a rancher's door in Carbon County, Wyoming for access. I am the anomaly! Much like the the gentleman in the photo you shared, we don't represent all black people. The anecdotes that he and I provide allow us to lose focus on the real issues. Unfortunately, most black men would be terrified to venture to the little towns and out of the way places that make exploring the American west so fun.

Are there problems and some self-imposed handcuffs in the black community? Of course there are. But denying that racism exists or the reality of deeply rooted, systemic issues surround race is wrong.

I sure as hell don't have all the answers but I hope my perspective can add value.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Outworked the men.

Not trying to call you out, just raising for the benefit of us white males as we try to be allies. Sometimes even our compliments may signal a sense of roles/pre-expectations based on gender or race. How often do you hear a young black professional referred to as "articulate". Or, a woman that "works as hard as any of the guys". Or, the assumption that the Asian member of a team is the one who is good at math. Or you are quickly told a woman's "husband stays home with the kids" in work settings. Why would "articulate" be a unique attribute of a black professional such that we point it out, can't he just be a "great addition to the team", or "one hell of an up and comer"? Why can't the woman just be a "damn hard working"? Why doesn't anyone point out when a man's wife stays at home with the kids?

There is a long list of such signals that suggest we are not yet viewing each other as unique individuals, rather that we are incorporating stereotypes into our perspective - even when we are trying to be supportive. I am not saying to walk on egg shells or feel guilty every time something comes out a way it was not intended. I am just reiterating what has been said many times in this thread - we as white males need to remain thoughtful on this topic, be open, listen well, bring our best empathy.

Here is one of my learnings a while back. My grandfather often called me "the boy" or "boy" and as a father I often used the same with my son. No back reference to the segregation and the south, just a casual term of endearment. And without thinking I started using it with other male kids that were friends of my son, but since our neighborhood was almost universally white I never really thought about it. And then I started coaching youth sports and the broader community has a significant black population. I still remember one practice when I called out to one of my very favorite players - "boy, I need you to get off the ball". I can still see the flash of hurt in the 9 year old boy's face, a small black face. I meant nothing wrong, it was a term of endearment in my world, but I failed to see the world through his eyes. My ignorance turned into his pain. No body called me out, no viral videos. But I did apologize after practice and never used that term again.

Too many white males are trying to apply the golden rule, when it is the platinum rule that shows true grace. "Do unto others as they wish you to do".

 

[VikingsGuy]

I don't think the government can mandate that to change.

While I agree to a point, we have to remember that government mandates created much of the problem - from the constitution ( think 3/5ths), to runaway slave laws, to segregation, to the over criminalization of minor offenses that fell largely on minority communities, and there is no doubt government action will have to be at least part of the solution.