A Navy Veteran’s perspective on racism

[Hilljackoutlaw]

Ozzy Osbourne is getting louder and clearer sounding! I think he is saying something about rails and trains....

 

[rwc101]

1. You’re not funny
2. Your cats ugly.
3. It probably doesn’t even have front claws.
4. I’m tired of you carrying a 261.73% post to like ratio that you don’t deserve and I’m coming for piece of your ass.


I am legion
Expect me.

 

[rwc101]

Could it be that economic signals enter into our comfort level of persons “different than us”?

1000% percent.

 

[Hilljackoutlaw]

I cant help but notice the lack of diversity on this forum I'm a "well known member" of ....maybe I am racist.

 

[Hilljackoutlaw]

Ok I'm done being a forum turd....carry on

 

[Northwoods Labs]

I debated even posting on this, I have a lot of thoughts on this, just based on my experiences I guess:

-we have just become so divided in this country, on so many issues. This is just another: racism, hate, looting, knee jerk reactions. I am not a big conspiracy and prepper kinda guy, but how we are living just isn't sustainable, on many levels
-In my line of work, I realize how privileged I am long before this happened. I'm not talking about just being white either, I had 2 parents who love me, lived in a safe neighborhood, positive friendships, access to the outdoors, etc. I was very lucky. I try to treat everyone right. If you are a good person, you are a good person. My sister's fiance is Muslim, I fish with Hmong, interact with Native Americans very regular and basically all positive
-I am not a huge fan of the "black lives matter movement" which might seem contradictory to above, but in my opinion some are using this to stir the pot. Let's not forget, African Americans are not the only race suffering. Spend anytime on a reservation and you know this.
-I do kinda have a hard time getting behind the whole "white privilege" thing. I mean, I had privileges, but like I explained so much more than race. I see a lot of the folks preaching "white privilege" on social media coming from suburbs and college towns. I live in a very poor, rural community. Not much privilege here no matter what race.....
-Now is the time more than ever to reach out to others you see hunting, fishing, and camping. Be kind, helpful, welcoming. Don't be a dick........

 

[rtraverdavis]

Anyone interested in reading the article that started this post and commenting on how it applies to hunting, fishing, and the outdoors? If not, I'm pretty sure this thread will get locked before I go to bed tonight.

Last summer, when you held your get-together at the Lucky Lab here in Portland, I spent an hour or so talking with the one black man and his family who came to the event. He was just getting into hunting, but he said it interested him his whole life. He said that no one in his family or in his friend group growing up hunted. I asked him what prompted him to start now, and he said he loved the outdoors and really liked the idea of going out and getting his own food. He also was encouraged by and enjoyed your platforms, Randy. So, a pretty typical story of an adult onset hunter.

What I did not ask him, and wish I did, is what it was like getting into hunting as a black man, and what we can do as sportsmen and women to be more genuinely inclusive to people of color. I didn’t have the guts to ask that then, but I think I would now.

 

[DouglasR]

Sob you nailed it.
I guess you are funny sometimes.

 

[3855WIN]

I don't know you and I don't know the relationship you have with these black Americans you interact with every day, but in my experience, very few black Americans will freely offer their most hurtful and personal experiences unless significant personal trust is present - don't be too quick to assume you know the depth of what they go through.

When you know people for 20-30 years, you talk about things.

 

[3855WIN]

I’ve taken two Black men hunting on property that I own or had access to over the years, now that I think about it.

Down here, it’s fairly common for Black citizens to hunt and fish. I will say that hunting tends to be fairly segregated as far as clubs and camps go.

 

[BuzzH]

Thanks to JLS for posting the original article, exposing a problem that's been going on for way too long.

I think as the conservation/hunting/fishing community a good place to start to address the problem would be over a shared interest to help others that show interest in hunting, fishing, public lands, etc.. Regardless of race, religion, etc. we can use all the help we can get in support of what we all enjoy.

Two birds with one stone...we can, and should be more than just leaders in conservation.

 

[Hammsolo]

I have heard lamentation on this directly from members of the Minneapolis PD; individuals who I work alongside on a regular basis, and don't like being represented by their worst.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/08/politics/police-union-reform-protests/index.html

Unions destroy their public perception when they include everyone. I’m a member of the teachers union. It has been good for me at times, but also often protects people that should not be in the profession. Until the police unions create a clear shared vision for an officer and hold officers to it these struggles will continue. I also believe the teachers unions need reform FYI.

 

[Hammsolo]

Systemic racism. That’s the new buzzword isn’t it? If racism is systemic then what’s the system? Blacks in America today should focus on the elimination of cradle to grave dependency on the welfare system. Pr. Johnson (D) implemented that system or rather inflicted it upon the black family and effectively destroyed it. Prior to that “program” black families were stable, owned successful businesses, owned there own farms, property and homes. They had to work to get ahead like everyone else because big welfare didn’t exist. In work is dignity but when the Great Society program was instituted to eliminate black poverty and social injustice, it backfired. But as Pr. Johnson said about it’s passing; “I’ll have those n1¥¥€#} voting democrat for the next 200 years”! In essence the D’s simply forged a few more links in the chain then locked it down by destroying the Black families. All in the name of social justice; whatever that is? That system has been in existence for 55+ years now. I’d say it’s failed spectacularly or it did exactly what it was intended to do. ?

I’d like to see the research backing this up. Your dates and comments state that black families were doing well before these changes. Is that in reference to the 55 years? So... you’re talking the 60’s and 70’s? Jim Crow Laws, like segregated bathrooms, existed into the 50’s as actual laws in some of our states and still remained accepted cultural norms for much longer. That’s not even a life-time ago. Let’s focus on ideas. I am an independent voter, but speaking in absolutes about Democrats just divides us.

 

[Deleted member 16014]

Good read.

Thoughts on the killing of George Floyd

Wait before you judge. Take a deep breath. Because you can. In the wake of the murder of George Floyd, I’ve seen countless people on social media expressing their rage — not about George’s death or about the underlying problem of inequality in our country — but about looting and physical damage...

www.hatchmag.com

Having an adopted child with dark skin, things like this certainly raise questions in my mind about how she will relate to hunting and the outdoors. I expect a pretty normal childhood and teenage hunting career, but once she’s recreating on her own I doubt it will be that way. There will likely be awkward questions, weird looks, etc. I hope it would stop there but it’s hard to imagine that it would based on experiences like this article describes. I’m not sure how you prepare a kid for that possibility without making them jaded or overly skeptical, other than just being open and talking about it. Just a reality to be aware of and learn about for all.

 

[Hammsolo]

This community, unlike many others I am a part of gives me hope. I am sad to say that empathy and the willingness to address this all too real situation seems to be in short supply in the hunting community. At least on social media political tribalism seems to be trump card that defines a person expressons on this issue.

Hats off to Big Fin and a smatering of others in this industry who we're willing to put themselves out publicly on the right side of this, as were some outdoor organizations. Others were noticeably absent, and in my mind, Qui tacet consentit

It’s the UNITED States... not DIVIDED states.

 

[azelkhntr]

I’d like to see the research backing this up. Your dates and comments state that black families were doing well before these changes. Is that in reference to the 55 years? So... you’re talking the 60’s and 70’s? Jim Crow Laws, like segregated bathrooms, existed into the 50’s as actual laws in some of our states and still remained accepted cultural norms for much longer. That’s not even a life-time ago. Let’s focus on ideas. I am an independent voter, but speaking in absolutes about Democrats just divides us.

Lots of history to cover. You’ll have to do your own research on that. Focus on the great gains made between 1941 up to the implementation of the Great Society and the negative after effects of that. Society is polarized politically by design. The powers that be behind the curtain don’t want you to know the truth of the real political reality. I can’t think of one redeeming value under the D banner any longer. They ain’t what they used to be that’s sure. But what is.

 

[BuzzH]

Society is polarized politically by design.

It sure is...

I can’t think of one redeeming value under the D banner any longer.

...and you bought it, hook, line, sinker.

Congratulations!

 

[Handlebar]

Take a look at Sen. Patrick Moynihan's (sp?) report that was done in 1965. While the report has garnered praise and criticism, many of the things that he talked about have come to pass. Moynihan was a trained sociologist with a PHD before he became a Senator.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Focus on the great gains made between 1941 up to the implementation of the Great Society and the negative after effects of that.

That reminds me of the Mayor in Missisippi Burning, "And I'm here to tell ya, our negroes were happy till those beatnik college kids came down here stirrin' things up."

Sorry, I am not convinced the 40s and 50s were a wonderful time for black Americans or their relationship with the police ("lots of history to cover, you'll have to do you own research on that").

the implementation of the Great Society and the negative after effects of that.

tlDR; (it's far more complicated than you suggest - and it doesn't excuse a clear pattern of police misconduct)

Like all overly simplistic but plausible explanations for complex problems there is a portion of truth to this - but it is not as simple as you suggest. There are many critics of the Great Society and I am one of them - but to say that it is the primary cause of our current police behavior and routine racism endured by black Americans in 2020 is just off. And to suggest this was the purposeful intent of the Dem party is a huge over reach.

But you really should be specific if you are telling us to do our own research. Which parts of the Great Society initiative are you referring to? Voting rights for African Americans, economic assistance to all schools, health insurance for the elderly and the poor regardless of race, fair housing laws, government protection for the environment, funding for the arts, an end to discriminatory immigration policies or welfare? I assume it is welfare, but if you are against any of those other prongs of the strategy let us know.

As for the welfare portion, it was race neutral and has ended up transferring far more money to poor whites than poor blacks due to the larger pool of whites in the population. If the GS is the primary cause why are we not seeing the same police behaviors directed to whites - we got more of the money? And why aren't all poor white all voting D?

And if this is all a long term D plot, why did Clinton drive welfare reform? And a tangential question, why did Clinton and Biden partner up to adopt Nixon's Southern strategy of criminalization and prison expansion if this is all a ploy to guarantee black votes?

Thomas Sowell, a great conservative economist from Stanford's Hoover Institute (who happened to be black) was a huge critic of the Great Society, but he was not against helping the poor per se. Rather his criticism stemmed from the "how". He blames the how of the early welfare system on the fact that most conservative Rs and Ds in congress at the time wouldn't get behind giving welfare to "able bodied men" and so the laws were initially focused on women and children without a man in the home. According to Sowell, this was the biggest reason that the GS hurt families - it took the poorest Americans and gave them financial incentives to create single parent homes. And with all the additional pressures on black communities as we were trying to unwind a century of segregation the problem felt the greatest there. It was not the liberal Ds who drove this unfortunate incentive, it was the conservative Ds and Rs.

[As an aside, Sowell's Conflict of Visions trilogy are worth the read]

But Sowell does not blame GS alone, he also shows that across races a number of social changes hit at the same time - and hit poor people (black and white) the hardest. The reduction of church attendance, increase of divorce, waves of drug crisises etc. A complex set of circumstances that has worked against the poorest Americans. Add to this the effect of harsh criminalization of non-violent drug offenses and other "reforms" and we have created a bad situation for the poor. Look at what meth has done to poor white communities.

Then on top of this add the race specific challenges where poor blacks, especially poor blacks involved in relatively minor criminal behavior are much more harshly treated and we can begin to understand where we find ourselves today. Not so simple, and the "bootstraps" argument just doesn't hold water anymore.

Society is polarized politically by design. The powers that be behind the curtain don’t want you to know the truth of the real political reality. I can’t think of one redeeming value under the D banner any longer. They ain’t what they used to be that’s sure. But what is.

I agree, but it is not only the Ds, and frankly for the last 4 years the Rs have been much more aggressive and successful in this arena. It is going to be the downfall of this great experiment if both sides don't take a hard look in the mirror.

I just finished reading "Why we're polarized". The author lays out a fairly interesting case on how our current system and society drives us to this natural result. For the first 8 chapters he does a decent job of laying blame all around. Sadly in the 9th chapter he dedicates one full chapter to why Republicans are evil. In the 10th and final chapter he got off his soap box and offered some next steps - still left of center but the obnoxious tone of the 9th chapter was gone. It's worth a read.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Take a look at Sen. Patrick Moynihan's (sp?) report that was done in 1965. While the report has garnered praise and criticism, many of the things that he talked about have come to pass. Moynihan was a trained sociologist with a PHD before he became a Senator.

The Moynihan Report

A historian annotates "The Negro Family: The Case for National Action" on its 50th anniversary.

www.theatlantic.com

While some themes still carry through, it is an oddly anachronistic read given the language and tone of the era - so depersonalized/de-humanized. But in the end my understanding is both left and right used it for their own purposes and no one bought the whole thing.