shoots-straight
Well-known member
I did. I was asking the question in general terms. I do try hard.
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Based on what I have read and heard, I think both sides share the blame for how this escalated. I am not saying Bundy had some right to graze his cattle, but it seems like the Feds could have handled this in a manner that wouldn't have put so many people at risk. The tactics used by both sides were wreckless IMO.
There is inherent risk in executing any court order. How could they have done it differently?
As I mentioned, I wasn't there, I don't know what the initial encounters looked or sounded like, and you don't either. I do know this doesn't excuse them of their responsibility to protect the Bundys as well as their own agents. I also know that their action played at least some part in escalating this situation; which now will shape every other situation like this, because all of the media outlets and political hacks will come out of the woodwork and try and inflame the public. Maybe they could have sent the local sheriff or game warden to talk to them and work out a deal that wouldn't have spiraled out of control. The annoyance in all of this is that over the weekend I have been trying to understand what happened here, and when I search for it all I get is the viewpoint of both extreme sides, and no facts whatsoever. The only thing I know for sure is the Bundys broke the law, the feds came in, and all of a sudden there are militias and a media fiasco.
When an LEO is in remote areas on NF and BLM lands, they absolutely need to have the best equipment that money can buy, including the best in firearms.
Those that have to scratch their heads wondering why the BLM/FS LEO's need firearms, K9 units, etc., sure arent putting much thought into it.
Mr. Bundy has done things specifically laid out in the Prohibited Acts section of the CFR for BLM grazing. Some of those prohibited acts can result in civil penalties while others in civil and/or criminal penalties. I would not be much surprised if the criminal part of that is not now exercised...Like I mentioned initially, I think the bundys were just as wrong, but what are going to be the long term consequences of the actions of both sides? How much more often are we going to see militias, and the like, subverting the legal efforts of LE? The BLM lost this round, but even if they would have succeded, would it have been a loss at the strategic level because of the precedence set? In this case enforcing the laws turned inflamatory, regardless of who was at fault.
No arguements here, Buzz, but it is how they are used. We use a term in the military called escalation of force, and they might have used it, but I have yet to get a accounting of the situation that seems like it isn't biased in one way or the other.
What were the restrictions imposed on the ranchers in 93 concerning the desert tortoise that made Bundy stop paying and nullify his grazing contract? Or was that just an excuse to stop paying?
Also, is there any truth that Harry Reid's son is pushing for a wind farm on this same ground? I'm not sure how that would make a difference anyway seeing how every wind farm I know of in Kansas have cattle grazing on that same property.
Hmmmmm...... escalation of force?
You are arguing with a guy who has persanally faced this type of situation, I completely understand what they were facing there, and this picture is not the point. Once it got here it was too late, and the agents had no choice in how they responded.
The problem is they let the situation get out of control and allowed the Bundys and their militia buddies take all of the initiative and attention. Once the militia folks showed up the BLM had already lost, regardless if they got the cattle off the land or not. There was no good way to do their job at that point, other than try and prevent loss of life on both sides.
You are arguing with a guy who has persanally faced this type of situation, I completely understand what they were facing there, and this picture is not the point. Once it got here it was too late, and the agents had no choice in how they responded.
The problem is they let the situation get out of control and allowed the Bundys and their militia buddies take all of the initiative and attention. Once the militia folks showed up the BLM had already lost, regardless if they got the cattle off the land or not. There was no good way to do their job at that point, other than try and prevent loss of life on both sides.
A rancher involved in a tense stand off with federal agents has warned that he will never back down down from his fight.
Cliven Bundy said he expects officials with the Bureau of Land Management to make another attempt to seize his cattle.
'They will come, and I don't care,' he told MailOnline.
'The people and citizens of America will win this fight. We have God on our side and we will be better prepared for them next time.'
Many of the militia, who wore camouflage clothing and stalked the roads around the Bundy home carrying automatic weapons,said they were prepared to take on the federal agents in a fire fight.
One was overheard boasting that he had two agent in his gun sight and could 'take them down.'
With the threat of violence so close federal officials took the decision to pull out their agents and return the estimated 300 cattle they had rounded up back to Bundy.
Despite not a single police officer being present when Bundy got up to speak he was flanked by two armed bodyguards.
When MailOnline attempted to reach Bundy's ranch they were stopped by four heavily armed members of a militia.
One carried an AR-15 rifle with telescopic sight and a hunting knife strapped to his chest.
Others in full camouflage clothing patrolled the road seemingly on the alert for an unseen enemy.
Asked why Bundy needed armed bodyguards, a militia member said brusquely: 'The Government are out to get him. We do not know what they are capable off.'
When it was pointed out that all federal agents had left the area 24 hours ago he replied: 'They could be spying on us from a drone.'