A "common sense" proposal that will piss off both sides

[Nick87]

Consider in some of the recent shootings, law enforcement officers have been slow to actually enter the building the shooter is in.

Both of these most recent mass murders involved shooters that wore some sort of body armor that made stopping them much more difficult.

What sort of society would it be if most everyone walked around with an AR and body armor?

Not really sure probably similar to the protest in Virginia a while back where a lot of them had body armor and an AR. No one was harmed there and before you jump all over that I'm not one of the tactical Chad's just pointing out that no one was harned there. I'm out of this one you guys should start lobbying to ban all semi automatic weapons the sooner the better. That way we can get it out of the way and move on to pump action next then maybe leverguns shortly after.✌

 

[406dn]

Not really sure probably similar to the protest inviting a while back where a lot of them had body armor and an AR. No one was harmed there and before you jump all over that I'm not one of the tactical Chad's just pointing out that no one was harned there. I'm out of this one you guys should start lobbying to ban all semi automatic weapons the sooner the better. That way we can get it out of the way and move on to pump action next then maybe leverguns shortly after.✌

Oh, the give them an inch and they'll take a mile theory. That is very threadbare.

 

[wyoelkfan15]

50 state firearms carry, no NFA bullchit for suppressors and barrel length, a push to enforce and prosecute existing laws, a funding mechanism for mental health upgrades, federal pre-emption to stop the CA/MA battle to be the most regulated states, and several others above.

You forgot to mention the ability to go to a Willie Nelson concert without the risk of a felony for having a left handed cigarette in your pocket...

 

[VikingsGuy]

since I broke my silence earlier...
I'll just add that I can't support #1 on VG's original list without more exemptions for use with the owner of the firearm (as in I can't lend my new SxS to a buddy for a hunt, while we both follow a bird dog through some likely covert), and inheritance.

While I may have been unclear, I did try to articulate gun sharing amongst hunting parties - it is an important and needed exception.

As for inheritance, I purposely left inheritance off. If Bill, a violent meth dealer with multiple felony convictions, can't buy a rifle at an FFL dealer, why would he be allowed to inherit one from Uncle Tim? In the alternative, if Steve is an upstanding law-abiding citizen with a clean record and his grandpa passed down a beloved family shotgun, what the big deal with going through a 30-minute FFL check to take possession?

But all of these formalities do drive home the point some have made - better to have a national firearms license for all law-abiding folks rather than doing it gun transfer by gun transfer.

 

[ignorethefringes]

While I may have been unclear, I did try to articulate gun sharing amongst hunting parties - it is an important and needed exception.

As for inheritance, I purposely left inheritance off. If Bill, a violent meth dealer with multiple felony convictions, can't buy a rifle at an FFL dealer, why would he be allowed to inherit one from Uncle Tim? In the alternative, if Steve is an upstanding law-abiding citizen with a clean record and his grandpa passed down a beloved family shotgun, what the big deal with going through a 30-minute FFL check to take possession?

But all of these formalities do drive home the point some have made - better to have a national firearms license for all law-abiding folks rather than doing it gun transfer by gun transfer.

Someone mentioned it previously, but I'd be all over an "opt in" national firearms license if I could skip the FFL process. Give folks the option of one or the other.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Besides, you're not going to be able to do it at the Federal level as it would be unenforceable. And you can't do it at the State level due to the 14th Amendment (Equal Protection Clause). So forget the idea.

If a gun law would be constitutionally allowed at fed level, it would also survive analysis at state level via the "incorporation doctrine" you are referring to (14A).

 

[thomas89]

First I want to say that this is NOT me critiquing individual parents and their parenting techniques. I don’t have children and don’t plan on judging what individuals decide to do with theirs’.

It is more of a criticism at the societal level, of why we have become as a nation and what we consider normal and abnormal behavior.

It seems that there’s a tendency, instead of parenting, for society to be set up in a way that responsibility for children is somewhat removed from the family. Whether that be day care, schooling, or a distraction of an iPad when out at dinner onstead of engaging in conversation with the adults.
Kids that can’t or don’t want to sit still for 8 hours a day indoors are put on ADHD medicine. The number of teenage girls that self describe themselves as having social “anxiety” is very high. I don’t think it’s crazy to think that most people should be able to live happy, enjoyable lives without needing to ingest chemical, mind altering pharmaceuticals daily.

I think it’s hard to ignore the breakdown in the nuclear family from say the 1960s to now. There’s more single parent households and the facts are clear on the statistical outcome for children of single parent households compared to those from dual parent households.
I don’t think there’s any one thing you can put your finger on and say “that’s it, that’s the thing” but more of a bunch of straws that collectively eventually break the proverbial camel’s back.

https://www.cchrint.org/pdfs/violence-report.pdf

This. Plus what I view as a “glamourization” of single motherhood/fatherhood/birthing person hood. An entire mentality of “I don’t need a man” … well no you might not but your kid sure as hell does.

 

[Irrelevant]

While I may have been unclear, I did try to articulate gun sharing amongst hunting parties - it is an important and needed exception.

I must have missed that, my apologies.

As for inheritance, I purposely left inheritance off. If Bill, a violent meth dealer with multiple felony convictions, can't buy a rifle at an FFL dealer, why would he be allowed to inherit one from Uncle Tim? In the alternative, if Steve is an upstanding law-abiding citizen with a clean record and his grandpa passed down a beloved family shotgun, what the big deal with going through a 30-minute FFL check to take possession?

1. If Bill can't own a firearm because he's a felon then he can't own a firearm. Nothing with an inheritance changes that. But considering Steve... when grandpa dies, what happens? Does someone come and take his guns then run the background check? How does anyone know he has guns to begin with? Do I, as the executer, take the gun into a dealer to make sure I can then take it home? Can I do it at home?

 

[jphares44]

Looks like I've missed out on a good one. Can someone bring me up to speed so I don't have to read 15 pages of comments?

Just kidding...I've enjoyed tracking this discussion throughout the day. A lot of great ideas and thoughts here. Credit to the forum for keeping it civil.

 

[Nick87]

Oh, the give them an inch and they'll take a mile theory. That is very threadbare.

No not that theory at all just if you take away a mentally ill person's access to an AR do you honestly believe that there gonna just say ah screw it, I'm gonna start a garden instead now. There just gonna use a different tool then we can blame that one. I'm not arguing that an AR platform will rack up a body count but it has nothing to do with the root of the problem at hand.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I must have missed that, my apologies.

1. If Bill can't own a firearm because he's a felon then he can't own a firearm. Nothing with an inheritance changes that. But considering Steve... when grandpa dies, what happens? Does someone come and take his guns then run the background check? How does anyone know he has guns to begin with? Do I, as the executer, take the gun into a dealer to make sure I can then take it home? Can I do it at home?

There is already a process for the executor in some states and while it may be an inconvenience it is not much more than buying a gun online.

As for, "if Bill can't own, he can't own", that really goes to the entire Background Check process, inheritance or normal purchase -- we don't trust recipients to self-manage this issue and instead make recipients get FFL background check before taking possession - no reason inheritance should be any different.

 

[4ohSick]

The “root of the problem” argument seems to be really popular, but I don’t buy it. It’s ill-defined and impossible to address, but that doesn’t mean “do nothing” is the only alternative. The opioid crisis is a great example of attempts to do something, because we can’t really address the root of addiction, but we can save some lives and that’s worth the effort.

 

[VikingsGuy]

The “root of the problem” argument seems to be really popular, but I don’t buy it. It’s I’ll-defined and impossible to address, but that doesn’t mean “do nothing” is the only alternative. The opioid crisis is a great example of attempts to do something, because we can’t really address the root of addiction, but we can save some lives and that’s worth the effort.

Somewhere along the 15 pages, we lost the thought of a package of proposals and have reverted to classic 10-word excuses/admonishments from both sides. But at least it has remained largely civil.

 

[Irrelevant]

There is already a process for the executor in some states and while it may be an inconvenience it is not much more than buying a gun online.

I guess I lean toward don't make a law that isn't enforceable. If you're not going to have a national registration where Big Brother knows grandpa has that gun, then there's no mechanism for Steve to do anything but take the gun from grandpa's safe to his safe. And toward that same regard, if grandpa is on hospice, but wants to give that ole 12 ga to Steve on his death bed, he shouldn't need to go to an FFL, and I guess my real point is that he won't. So why make a law that simply won't be evoked or enforced? The caveat is there is no national registry. If that exists then my entire argument goes away. Personally, I'm fine either way on the registry.

 

[longbow51]

Wake up. This is the 21st century. The homestead militia as a national defense entity stopped being anything approaching practical or useful by 1860. And if you think a band of misfits could overthrow a "tyrannical" government with hunting rifles or even ARs, you are clearly delusional. Do the future of gun ownership a favor and drop the militia angle. Realistically it's nonsense and only hurts the cause.

Yet, when faced with an invasion, the first thing the government of Ukraine did was beg for more guns and ammo for the populace, in addition to missiles.

And, I did want more advanced weaponry, but as with most ammo, Scheels was fresh out of JDAMs.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

To further muddy the waters, I would guess that the rates of two-parent families and certainly people who claim to adhere to Christianity are higher in Montana than in the urban centers. I'm no wllm1313 so I lack the data to prove this or the ability to present it in any legible way if I did have it, but many would make the argument that those factors should make an rural "traditional values" state much safer than an urban one.

Household demographics are recorded by the census but there are lots of paper written about how they are problematic. Essentially that research suggest that multi adult households don't have tangible differences from married couple households, the census (historically) has defined 2 parent has hetro married couples ie multi generational households, grandma lives with mom and child, gay& lesbian families, unmarried parents in long term relationships, uncle who lives with sister, etc are all considered "single parent" households. It's an interesting topic if you google.

To your direct question this is the closest thing I know of...

Percentage of single mother households in the U.S. 2019, by state | Statista

This graph shows the Percentage of households led by a female householder with no spouse present with own children under 18 years living in the household in the U.S.

www.statista.com

 

[schmalts]

Maybe not conversationally, but legally alcohol is highly regulated - age limits, vendor licensing, time place and manner restrictions etc. (and historically there was prohibition)

Ummmm Are you saying guns are not regulated?? Might want to re-think that comment. Booze is regulated, so I guess no one drives drunk anymore.

 

[woods89]

The “root of the problem” argument seems to be really popular, but I don’t buy it. It’s I’ll-defined and impossible to address, but that doesn’t mean “do nothing” is the only alternative. The opioid crisis is a great example of attempts to do something, because we can’t really address the root of addiction, but we can save some lives and that’s worth the effort.

I think we need to be discussing the "root of the problem" ideas, as they have wide application outside of mass shootings. We need to be looking at our past and trying to understand what the unintended consequences of our actions have been. That said, progress on that front is certainly difficult and time consuming.

I think I could be fine with most, if not all, of @VikingsGuy list. I love to see some progress on suppressors, for sure.

 

[406dn]

No not that theory at all just if you take away a mentally ill person's access to an AR do you honestly believe that there gonna just say ah screw it, I'm gonna start a garden instead now. There just gonna use a different tool then we can blame that one. I'm not arguing that an AR platform will rack up a body count but it has nothing to do with the root of the problem at hand.

I think earlier that I mentioned they may well act on their darkness and kill. I would prefer that when they do, they have a much less lethal weapon.

We will never stamp out mental illness or evil. We could choose to make their weapon of choice less effective. Or we can keep on keeping on like we are.

 

[Redman]

Until the problem of evil people do evil things is addressed red tape, laws, etc. Will not do anything to stop it. Out law guns, knives, alcohol, cars..etc. these are tools. The problem is and will always be the soul that uses them.