ImBillT
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.280AI hands down no question
6.5 PRC vs .280AI
- Thread starter maconbacon
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maconbacon
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Care to expand a bit more on your reasoning?
D
Deleted member 28227
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Factory or handloads?
Factory sure .280, if you hand load get the 6.5, 1:8 or 1:7.5 twist barrel and load 140 grain hammers or other copper bullets.
I have a .264 win mag, I current have been shooting 120grn etips. Can’t complain about the performance on elk, deer, bear...
Factory sure .280, if you hand load get the 6.5, 1:8 or 1:7.5 twist barrel and load 140 grain hammers or other copper bullets.
I have a .264 win mag, I current have been shooting 120grn etips. Can’t complain about the performance on elk, deer, bear...
L. Clay Cooper USAF Ret.
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Been shooting 6.5x55 for 58 years (damn I'm aging myself again)
Heavy into hunting and competition up to 95 the 6.5 for long range is a bit on the small caliber side. Someday I hope I'll get a chance to go Elk hunting. I have taken deer with 25-06 and 30-06 out to 750 yards and two caribou one at 300 and the other around 700 yards with 338 Win Mag. Personally if it was for me I go with the 338 Win Mag with 210's or 225's and suggest a muzzle break. Hitting it accurtly is one thing, Watching it run over the mountain simply because of small diameter bullet? not good. One thing you'll notice over the years is everyone talks about "FOOT POUND ENERGY" not a single one mentions "HYDROSTATIC SHOCK" commonly known in the medical world as remote wounding. Remote wounding is where a high velocity bullet impact hits the chest cavity causing massive tissue displacement creating and explosive hydrostatic shock wave (like shooting a 5 gallon can full of water) travels up the arteries blowing the brain out and destroying the nervous systems and that's why you see what's called a BANG FLOP!
L. Clay Cooper USAF Ret.
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I used both 308 and 30-06 service rifles effectively out to 1000 yards
Between the two, I voted with my wallet by choosing the 280AI because I think 7mm is probably a more versatile caliber based on billets available if you reload or are thinking about it. I also live in a state where 6.5mm is NOT legal for elk so that was a factor too. I have a 7mm-08 for things that would require more power at the typical hunting distances here East of the Mississippi. Either would likely serve you well but the 308 would likely do most of what you’d want to do... also consider the 30-06, 300 WM, or 7RM if there are any concerns about the 308.
maconbacon
Active member
I don’t hand load but I’m planning on getting into it. Hoping Santa will bring me the supplies
Even with the 308 there aren’t too many factory lead free options so I’ve been pondering hand loading for some time. Love the sound of the Hammers
maconbacon
Active member
Really, which state? Several western states have pretty much no restriction, just no rimfire cartridges. Some say .24 caliber minimum
Kentucky has imposed a 27 caliber minimum on Elk. I know many western states don’t have these restrictions but it’s a factor for me should I ever be drawn for a tag. Only lived here a few years and really have only been into big game hunting the last few. Grew up fishing in Texas but the hunting bug is relatively recent even though I’ve shot for some time now.
maconbacon
Active member
Interesting. Good to know thanks! Wonder what their reasoning for that is exactly
deer_shooter
Well-known member
Check out Hammer bullets. Lead free and they have a 139gr that may be of interest. I am working on a load for them in my 6.5/06.
maconbacon
Active member
Good to know.
Would be interesting to see the accuracy and what velocities you get from those rounds.
I’m assuming it’s based on data collected from wildlife biologists here... and probably some data based on anecdote. It’s known that Bell killed many elephants with a 7mm Mauser (even if not the ideal round) and it would be safe to assume that a 6.5 could make the same killing shot. I think some comes from selection of cartridges and 270 Winchester is an oldie but goodie. The 6.5’s really have only picked up stateside in the last 10-15 years and I wouldn’t be surprised to see the rules being revisited in time but when you allow 6.5 I feel like you’ll possibly have some 6mm and 25 caliber shooters complain that there’s not much difference between a 6/6/5 Creedmoor and a 25-06 or a 6.5 PRC and a 240/257 Weatherby... and that becomes just a rabbit hole.
In any case I went with the 7mm-08 and the 280 AI. I used to own a 308 years ago but sold it because I just didn’t shoot it all that much and used the money for other stuff. The wife also got me a Mathews Traverse for Christmas last year... so that’s my outdoors kit along with a couple of fishing rods.
D
Deleted member 28227
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No. Some states just have weird cutoffs that defy physics.
.264 win mag
26 Nosler
6.5-300 Weatherby Mag
6.5 Sherman
All can be handloaded and for some factory ammo purchased to shoot a heavier bullet faster than any factory .270 win offering, not to mention 7mm-08.
Sorry personal pet peeve. I believe PA also has that .270 cut off.
I shoot the 124 grain Hammer Hunter in my 6.5 creed, a little under 2900 FPS and about 0.5 MOA.
I shoot a 136 grain hammer in my 280, 3100 FPS and about 0.7 5 MOA.
ImBillT
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For trajectory purposes I prefer to hunt with something that has a muzzle velocity near 3000fps or more. I know everyone says “rangefinder and dial your scope”, but whether you’re dialing or holding, and whether you’re using a range finder or your eyes, there is error in all of it. The flatter your trajectory less sensitive your shot is to all of those errors. If you actually compare a .308Win with a 180gr Partition to a 26Nosler with a 140gr Elite Hunter the difference is stark.
.308Win 180 Partition 2600fps
100yd zerp
480yds -57.82”. -47.09”
500yds -64.47”. -53.30”
520yds -71.58”. -59.
26Nosler 140 Elite Hunter 3300fps
100yd zero. 200yd zero
480yds. -29.97”. -25.11”
500yds. -33.42”. -28.36
520yds. -37.08”. -31.82”
So a 20yd ranging error is resulting in a 7” difference in POI with the .308Win compared to a 3.5” difference with the 26Nosler. Also, you literally had to dial half as much with the 26Nosler, resulting in less chance for error. You compound that with the error in angle calculated by your range finder, the fact that a lot trajectory calculating range finders don’t use your actual BC, but just one that’s close, the fact that most manufacturers BCs, especially G1 BCs are fairly incorrect, the fact that your “custom dial” was set for a certain elevation and temperature that you’re not actually hunting at etc. and all this range and dial stuff isn’t as fool proof as we pretend it is, and shooting a cartridge/bullet combination with a flat trajectory is as valuable today as it ever was. Yes I choose two extreme examples, but statements are FREQUENTLY made on this forum that suggest that as long as you have a range finder and a custom turret you can make perfect hits at any range with any cartridge regardless of trajectory. It’s flat wrong. It works ok at the range because the range is always at the same elevation and the targets are usually at the exact same range and angle. Heck, I don’t have as good a hold on an animal as I do at the range. Why would I want to introduce other problems I could avoid? My personal preference is to get as close to 3000fps as I can.
Now I will finally answer your question.
A 6.5mm 140gr projectile is on the light side for elk, especially if you’re considering shooting one at a distance at which error will be greater. Sure, a lot of elk have been killed with a .243Win shooting a 100gr bullet, but most of them were with near perfect shots. If you’re going to be trying to do that at 500yds, You really want a bullet that will be a little more deadly in case of a less than perfect shot. A 6.5PRC under normal circumstances will push a 140gr bullet at about 2950fps, so for my preference, it’s pretty much topped out at 140gr. Compare that to a .280AI. A .280AI will push a 168gr bullet about 2950fps. In VLDs the 168gr 7mm has a higher BC than the 140vr 6.5mm. Depending on the manufacture BCs may end up about the same. If you’re going to shoot elk, why not hit it with 20% more bullet, especially since you have not sacrificed trajectory, BC, or impact velocity? You can wring a little extra from both cartridges with longer barrels, bullet coatings, and hand loading up to pressure signs. If you will accept a lower velocity, you can still only get to 156gr in the 6.5PRC, and can almost match that trajectory with a 175gr in the .280AI. If trajectory does not matter to you, you can go over 190gr in the .280AI.
I’m going elk hunting this year with a 6.5-257AI shooting 156Elite Hunters at 2975fps. If I had a .280AI(stalled build) I would carry it instead and would shoot a 175-180gr Berger around 2950fps.
Data they’ve collected based on what’s available to them. I’m not saying that the data is complete. The 6.5 Swede has been killing for over 100 years... but what’s the sample size? What percentage of people are handloading? Those are relatively “exotic” rounds (that are all capable) compared to your basic 270, 30-06, 7RM, etc.
No. Some states just have weird cutoffs that defy physics.
.264 win mag
26 Nosler
6.5-300 Weatherby Mag
6.5 Sherman
All can be handloaded and for some factory ammo purchased to shoot a heavier bullet faster than any factory .270 win offering, not to mention 7mm-08.
Sorry personal pet peeve. I believe PA also has that .270 cut off.
I never said the others weren’t capable but I stated what my own rationale was for choosing what I chose based on legality. We can all have abstract arguments about potential but the reality is that I’m not going to jail or being fined over a dead animal... I pick and choose my worthwhile battles accordingly.
D
Deleted member 28227
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Yeah no, I think the state just was like.... mmmmm .270... done. I doubt there was really much thought. All western states are .243 for all big game except for Bison, which in AK and MT has equally dumb cutoffs. IMHO energy (ft/lbs) at a specific distance should be the bar.
States make regs for the least common denominator knowing fully well that even then they will be broken all the time.
Doesn't really mater, rules are rules, I want to hunt Bison someday so likely my next rifle will be in a caliber that allows me to do so, which puts me in the same boat as you.
Doesn't mean I can't roll my eyes.
The Swede is a bit of an outlier in this convo because the barrel twist was kinda out of place for it's time. You can easily find 155-160 factory ammo, whereas the .264win mag has a twist more for lighter weight high speed and therefore 140grain is the factory max and even then hard to come by, most offer 120 grain (plus barrel twist for most older guns are 1:9). I think there is an overwhelming sample our of Scandinavia size to suggest that for moose 6.5 swede is a phenomenal cartridge.
Also it's @Europe 's favorite so case closed.
Brian in Montana
Well-known member
There is certainly a learning curve, but handloading will bring out the most of any rifle you got. And .308 is really a great cartridge to learn on and experiment with.
Well I won’t take a condescending tone toward the wildlife biologist in the state. I’ve spoken with a few of them and found them to be really helpful people. They probably deal in large data sizes and they probably take lowest common denominator into account as well... as to say not everyone with a rifle in their hand knows how to use it all that well. Saw it in my time in the military where quite a few would boast about their ability that didn’t line up with actual range performance... it is what it is and anyone can have a bad day. In any case, just because something is capable of taking it doesn’t make it the most reliable choice. Tissue damage destruction has much more to do with quick death than applied energy and penetration alone.
There are far too many that will choose the $18-25 box of ammo over the $35-75 box because “they don’t see the difference” and I think it’s why laws like this exist... people can be stupid... and there’s probably data to back THAT up too... like the guy that worked with my father in law that shot ”the biggest deer he’s ever seen” except it was an elk so he had to pay the fine. The point being we can say it’s stupid and no one has ever the denied that the 6.5 was capable in the right hands. What I can is that larger calibers tend to be more reliable killers in less capable hands to a point. I believe 28 and 30 caliber based rifles are “the best” choice for most assuming that you can shoot them well based on availability to go from a lighter shooting 7mm-08 to the overbored RUM, Nosler, or STW designs (and all the stuff in between)... or the 308 to the fancy 30 Magnum designs.
I do question if there are diminishing returns in either once to get to 30-06 derived case sizes as maybe it makes more sense to go up to the midbore rounds like the 35 Whelen, 9.3 Mauser/Brenneke, or 375 Magnums... assuming you can handle the recoil but that’s another discussion for another day I guess.
There are far too many that will choose the $18-25 box of ammo over the $35-75 box because “they don’t see the difference” and I think it’s why laws like this exist... people can be stupid... and there’s probably data to back THAT up too... like the guy that worked with my father in law that shot ”the biggest deer he’s ever seen” except it was an elk so he had to pay the fine. The point being we can say it’s stupid and no one has ever the denied that the 6.5 was capable in the right hands. What I can is that larger calibers tend to be more reliable killers in less capable hands to a point. I believe 28 and 30 caliber based rifles are “the best” choice for most assuming that you can shoot them well based on availability to go from a lighter shooting 7mm-08 to the overbored RUM, Nosler, or STW designs (and all the stuff in between)... or the 308 to the fancy 30 Magnum designs.
I do question if there are diminishing returns in either once to get to 30-06 derived case sizes as maybe it makes more sense to go up to the midbore rounds like the 35 Whelen, 9.3 Mauser/Brenneke, or 375 Magnums... assuming you can handle the recoil but that’s another discussion for another day I guess.
