4 year olds with guns

[shoots-straight]

Make the test harder to pass. If the kid is smart enough, and mature enough, then OK. I don't see a lot of 10 year olds being able to pass the same courses as a 12 yr old.

The fact is that this will be a license to poach. Many will use it. Without the license, they will think twice. Might be enough of a deterrent.

 

[BuzzH]

Lots of old "traditions" in Montana die hard...illegally party hunting being one of the slowest to die.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Twodot,

I'm not saying that youth shouldn't have opportunity, but my concern is that there will be folks who go out and purchase tags for infants. I hear enough from folks who bust dad's already doing this for their youth hunters, why would we encourage such behavior?

I think Critter has a great idea about having to pass hunter's safety if we want to lower the age of when a kid can hunt, but I gotta admit, if we make this whole sport just about the killing, it makes me nervous about what hunting will become.

 

[Ben Lamb]

With freedom comes responsibility. Heck Ben, laws are for honest people, right? I try to be in the good parenting column.

Not everybody is as sweet as you are, sugar.

 

[----]

if we make this whole sport just about the killing, it makes me nervous about what hunting will become.

I started going hunting with my dad when I was probably four or five. I watched him and my grandpa's shoot dozens of animals and it's some of the best memories I have. You'd have a hard time telling me that I wasn't hunting even though I was carrying a .22 and they were doing the killing.

Same thing with CG's kids, they're already hunters, even though they don't have a tag in their pocket.

 

[belly-deep]

I don't think it will change a kids interest in the sport one bit. As Randy11 said, when you're that age, you are thrilled as can be to just go along.

Teaching kids to wait is good for them. Instant gratification is not what kids need more of.

 

[RUT JUNKEY]

Make the test harder to pass. If the kid is smart enough, and mature enough, then OK. I don't see a lot of 10 year olds being able to pass the same courses as a 12 yr old.

The fact is that this will be a license to poach. Many will use it. Without the license, they will think twice. Might be enough of a deterrent.

I have to agree with SS on this. . .The test needs to be a little tougher, its not crazy easy now here in Indiana, but, the parents can sit in the class and "help" the kids if needed. . .I would like to see it just be the kids in the classroom . . .I believe it would make a difference. . I wouldn't be opposed to saying they can't take the class till they are ____ years old either. Not sure how its done in any other states right now though.

 

[shoots-straight]

These are pictures of me at 12, and my kid at 12. I can tell you for a fact that although I was willing, physically it was tough. At 10 dad took me out, but the gun was heavy, and I was small.

In the heat of battle it's very tough to get kids lined up properly on game at 12. I see problems with getting kids at 10 in the same position. Dads will get very frustrated, and many will go to guns.

BTW, I shot firearms at a very early age, and shot them regularly (deaf now because of it). I was a bird killing machine. Big game is a whole other thing. I doubt many kids today, spend as much time shooting and hunting as I did back then.

 

[twodot]

Buzz, I know that you are a stickeler for the facts of a matter. (a good character trait)
So tell me more about those cow elk, do you have facts that tell you the law was broken resulting in high harvest in the 100 unit. Or are you going on speculation?
If infractions did happen, what does that have to do with the people who legally enjoyed the opportunity to harvest their elk? You are saying you would take this away from them because someone else might do something wrong? Never would have figured that.

Ben, you are indeed saying that youth should not get equal opportunity to hunt.
If some dumbass with a toddler goes and kills a bull and trys to pass it off as a legal kill it is just a great opportunity for law enforcement to get some easy work. Chances are guys who would do that are already breaking some other laws too.
Your line of thinking on this is so totally like the anti-gunner mentality. Do you think we should not sell handguns because a certain unknown percentage of them may be used in a crime? Same kind of thinking going on here.

 

[Ben Lamb]

To be honest, I do not support selling handguns to 12 year olds.

 

[thecrittergitter]

.....and even possibly doe tags for some river bottom units. And there's tons of opportunities if you want to get your kid some trigger time already.

Actually, just doe hunting was really what I had in my mind for my kids earlier than 12. However, since you can't just pull certain animals out and put in a reg for "riverbottom whitetails", its probabaly all or none.

I definately can see everyones point about it getting abused, there are plenty of the guys like Randy11 has mentioned that would see it as a tag filling spree.

I feel my kids would be able to pass hunters safety at 10, at least the one I took when I was 11.

I also agree that the parents should NOT be able to sit there and help the kids through their damn test, wtf. I know there were no parents in the class when I took it. Hell, the way so many parents let their kids off on easy street anymore, they probably are just giving the kids all the answers so they can pass........

 

[Carrion Carrier]

Poaching is a problem. Period.

Party hunting is poaching (in MT).
1-800-TIP-MONT - use it! Turn in poachers. Relatives, neighbors, anyone that is poaching. If you know that poaching is happening, make the call. Even if you have no proof, the wardens will be paying attention. H

I like the idea of keeping the hunter's safety test, even for the "mentored". Severely restrict the taking of cows for the under-18 crowd (and those damn PTHV slobs).

I think buying a tag for extremely young children should be a red flag for enforcement.

Most road-hunters I know are convinced there isn't any game left (wolves got 'em). They can't fill their own tags and I doubt they are going to be filling extras for their kids.

 

[belly-deep]

Buzz, I know that you are a stickeler for the facts of a matter. (a good character trait)
So tell me more about those cow elk, do you have facts that tell you the law was broken resulting in high harvest in the 100 unit. Or are you going on speculation?
If infractions did happen, what does that have to do with the people who legally enjoyed the opportunity to harvest their elk? You are saying you would take this away from them because someone else might do something wrong? Never would have figured that.

Ben, you are indeed saying that youth should not get equal opportunity to hunt.
If some dumbass with a toddler goes and kills a bull and trys to pass it off as a legal kill it is just a great opportunity for law enforcement to get some easy work. Chances are guys who would do that are already breaking some other laws too.
Your line of thinking on this is so totally like the anti-gunner mentality. Do you think we should not sell handguns because a certain unknown percentage of them may be used in a crime? Same kind of thinking going on here.

Maybe we should abolish tags altogether and just go on the "honor system"?

Everyone would be allowed one elk and one deer a year. And no more policing LE units...lets just assume that anyone packing a critter out has drawn a tag. Heck, lets just get rid of game wardens completely.

Because everyone who breaks the law is going to do so regardless, right???




Spend some time in the 100 units. When you see a 12 year old roll through a check station in her pajamas watching Snow White on a portable DVD player, you'll know what Buzz is talking about.

 

[thecrittergitter]

twodot and critter...All I can tell you, is with cow elk being open for youth hunters on a general tag...many families I know made the comment, "well looks like we'll get at least one cow every year now".

The cow elk harvest went through the roof in the 100 series units...and I find it hard to believe that it was the 12-14 year olds pulling the trigger in 90% of the cases.

I think kids starting actually buying licenses and killing animals should remain at 12. Maybe open some youth opportunities for things like grouse at a younger age, but for big-game, keep it 12.

Its a prudent age limit IMO.

I think they are going to have to consider not allowing the youth to shoot cows on general tag in some of those areas. They had to do that in some of SW MT

 

[Carrion Carrier]

Love those pics Shoots!

 

[RUT JUNKEY]

Actually, just doe hunting was really what I had in my mind for my kids earlier than 12. However, since you can't just pull certain animals out and put in a reg for "riverbottom whitetails", its probabaly all or none.

I definately can see everyones point about it getting abused, there are plenty of the guys like Randy11 has mentioned that would see it as a tag filling spree.

I feel my kids would be able to pass hunters safety at 10, at least the one I took when I was 11.

I also agree that the parents should NOT be able to sit there and help the kids through their damn test, wtf. I know there were no parents in the class when I took it. Hell, the way so many parents let their kids off on easy street anymore, they probably are just giving the kids all the answers so they can pass........

i remember taking it as part of a Wildlife Biology class in high school, that would be nice if they offered it that way now. . .not going to happen though.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

twodot---It appears that many of the guys posting on this thread are so far behind times that it hurts me to read their comments, LOL! Programs like this proposed one have been going on in Michigan and a number of other states for some time now and it's been an overwhelming success everywhere. Texas has allowed little kids to hunt big game before they are as tall as the rifles they're shooting and it's been that way for years with no problems whatsoever. Sure there may be some parents taking advantage of the situation and those would probably be ones that are already poaching animals on their wife's or friends tags. If you know that's happening, then turn the SOB in on the tip line!!! To hear all this negative stuff is like I'm reading the question whether anyone should be allowed to continue to have ARs because of the CT school shootings! My gosh guys, this proposed legislation is not mandatory. It would allow the parent to decide when a particular kid can safely hunt and puts pretty good restrictions on things. Saying a kid should have to wait until 12 to kill a deer, hog, or whatever, is as bad as saying we should get rid of all the ARs and big magazines because a few abuse the right or priviledge or something bad MIGHT happen. Who better to decide when it's time than the parent of the kid, rather than the government to tell us when! I started when I was five and I saw and still see a lot of "old timers" that weren't/aren't nearly as safe as what I was trained to be as soon as I was literally cutting my teeth. If you don't want your kid to kill a deer until he/she is 12, then that's fine, but don't restrict an 8 year old of another that may be more than ready under proper supervision. In conclusion, I would also state that the youth hunter should not have any more chance at a cow tag or anything else that all other don't have. If they are supposedly killing toomany cows or that opens up problems, then change the copw tag rule! Giving them a cow tag "just becuse" gets into the "entitlement" attitude which I'm definitely against whether it's youth or anyone else that thinks things should be tilted in the favor of some over others.

 

[rhomas]

I started hunting with my own gun and on my own stand around 8 or 9 years of age. I killed my first deer at 10. I started putting Travis on a stand by himself at 8, and he killed his first deer, also at 10. SC requires a license at age 16, and hunter safety for anyone born after June 30, 1979, in order to acquire a license. First of all, I believe the hunter safety requirement is just a means to increase income for the SCDNR, and after taking the on-line course, myself( was hoping I'd win a hunting trip to Colorado); fail to see where any "safety" is actually taught. It was more of a technical course on what constitutes the different mechanical aspects of various guns, and archery gear, with just a few of the rudimentary common sense rules of handling a firearm thrown in for good measure. I believe each individual child's parents should determine when their child is competent enough to handle a gun, and when they can be trusted to hunt. I do not believe it's the business of any governing body to make such a determination based on an arbitrary minimum age. As some of you may have seen from the pictures I've posted over in the "deer" forum, Travis is pretty adept at killing deer, and he just turned 16 on January 10th. He has 8 years of experience and now must take and pass an arbitrary class in order to get his license for next season, in June. I've hunted with many people that were in their 30's and 40's that I would not trust nearly as much as I trust Travis.

As to people who would use a kid's license in order to kill animals, I've never had to experience the limits and tag requirements that evidently most of you have, so I can't speak to the possibilities of unscrupulous people taking unfair advantage of a kid's license. But, I have to agree that using such a scenario as a basis for limiting the license age, is exactly the same as the proposed gun bans which are based on the criminal actions of a few as opposed to the legal actions of many.

 

[BuzzH]

twodot,

I dont have the exact numbers in front of me, and I'm not going to take credit for the information that I read.

But, I know Drahtthar, that posts on this board quite a bit, and lives in the 100 series units, had some great information on the number killed by youth hunters. You may want to PM him and let him fill in the exact details.

IIRC, he did a great job of looking at total cow tags issued, success rates on those tags, then figuered out the total cow elk harvest. I believe he said that about 600 cows were being taken each year by "youth" hunters in the 100 series. Considering how tough the elk hunting is in most of those units...thats an incredible success rate.

This was going on while elk numbers were supposedly tanking.

I know the last year it was legal for youth to hunt cows in the 200 series, my Dad and Brother stumbled onto a "youth" cow elk hunt situation that was far from legal. No way to prove it...but its not hard to tell when the Dad does all the yapping and the kid looks about as interested as a stump about the dead elk.

Like I said, party hunting is still a wide-spread problem in Montana...they need no encouragement with bills like this that will only make it worse.

 

[jryoung]

IIRC, he did a great job of looking at total cow tags issued, success rates on those tags, then figuered out the total cow elk harvest. I believe he said that about 600 cows were being taken each year by "youth" hunters in the 100 series. Considering how tough the elk hunting is in most of those units...thats an incredible success rate.

It's because kids are so much smaller they can motor through that jungle with ease popping out of the thick brush and blast elk with ease.