Zinke Proponent of BALANCED, Not Extremist Leadership.

[BigHornRam]

Have you ever been on what was formerly Plum Creek land in Western Montana?

Buzz knows what he's talking about.

Yea. Its a ugly logged over mess.



When Plum Creek owned it Buzz called it moonscape. When the forest service purchased it through the legacy act it became worthy of spreading his ashes over. Perspectives I guess

 

[TheJason]

Since Weyerhaeuser came into the conversation while I was typing my first response, I'd like to weigh in on that since it's in my back yard. There are VERY few elk on all that land. Lot's of roads, lots of deer. All that private, heavily logged land burned just like the forest service land around it during the last fire.

Thank you Gerald, and also Buzz for touching upon the multiple use mandate. It's apples and oranges to compare private timberlands to federal lands. Last I checked, Hancock Timber isn't mandated to manage for multiple use. The manage for timber. They aren't subject to NEPA, or EIS requirements.

They don't care how many elk are there, so they don't worry about road density and escapement cover. Some timber company ground is great hunting, but there are also parcels that are a nuclear wasteland. I have no problem with it, because it's private land and they can do with it as they wish. If federal lands were managed as such, I wouldn't be too happy. Multiple use requires compromise.

I am, and always have been a huge proponent of subsidizing the shit out of intensive timber management along the WUI of the Intermountain West. Yes, it will cost more money that it brings in. I don't think there is any way you can do it and make it profitable, but I don't really care. I'd rather subsidize that than Ford Motor Company.

 

[BigHornRam]

Just quietly, yes. And sorry to hijack your thread.

Next time say "375 knows what he is talking about" as that may give me some credibility. Until then I am hopeless.

No problem. I am enjoying the discussion!

 

[375H&H]

Yea. Its a ugly logged over mess.

View attachment 78180

When Plum Creek owned it Buzz called it moonscape. When the forest service purchased it through the legacy act it became worthy of spreading his ashes over. Perspectives I guess

You should also note that picture is not taken from productive coastal forests with the quick turnaround, but land very similar to western Montana.

 

[tjones]

Yea. Its a ugly logged over mess.

View attachment 78180

When Plum Creek owned it Buzz called it moonscape. When the forest service purchased it through the legacy act it became worthy of spreading his ashes over. Perspectives I guess

Not a big fan of the European forest look. Neither are bull elk.

 

[375H&H]

Not a big fan of the European forest look. Neither are bull elk.

I agree, big bull elk are all we should manage for. Kill everything that competes with them. And I literally laughed when you said European forest look. More feed on the ground is certainly bad for large ungulates.

 

[tjones]

I agree, big bull elk are all we should manage for. Kill everything that competes with them. And I literally laughed when you said European forest look. More feed on the ground is certainly bad for large ungulates.

Bull elk and most game animal require cover or they die.

 

[375H&H]

Bull elk and most game animal require cover or they die.

Great job with the observations. That picture clearly shows no heavy cover in the background. Now I'm wondering, how the hell do desert elk and mule deer survive with no cover? Must be the hand of god.

 

[BuzzH]

Great job with the observations. That picture clearly shows no heavy cover in the background. Now I'm wondering, how the hell do desert elk and mule deer survive with no cover? Must be the hand of god.

Not in areas with OTC 11 week seasons on public land...kind of self explanatory, if only obviously.

For perspective, open up unit 100 in Wyoming for general tags...let me know how long those desert elk fare with 11 weeks of hunting.

Grasping straws, big-time.

 

[BigHornRam]

Bull elk and most game animal require cover or they die.

Yes, the cover is very sparse here, but somehow the bull elk have managed to thrive, dispite Montana's terrible regulations.

 

[BigHornRam]

BALANCED effort to conserve some old PCT land. I got a chance to tour this project a couple years ago and it is some nice looking property.

http://mtwatersheds.org/app/news-it...3398-acres-timber-company-land-public-review/

 

[Straight Arrow]

BHR, are you and Terry Anderson concluding that if that L&C National Forest project had been completed, then the nearby forest fire would have been averted?

BHR, you have not answered my question.

 

[TheJason]

How resistant to fire would this tract be?

Yes, the cover is very sparse here, but somehow the bull elk have managed to thrive, dispite Montana's terrible regulations.

View attachment 78185

View attachment 78186

 

[Deleted member 18333]

Wyoming is the epitome of conservation, they mine and develop where they need to, but also set aside vast national parks, wilderness areas, BLM, and national forest that are not mined.

While I don't disagree with some of what you are saying. Don't kid yourself, if Yellowstone was sitting on top of an 80' thick 9500 BTU coal seam at a 3:1 strip ratio you would see more 8750's in the Lamar valley than elk.

 

[375H&H]

Wyoming is the epitome of conservation, they mine and develop where they need to, but also set aside vast national parks, wilderness areas, BLM, and national forest that are not mined.QUOTE]

While I don't disagree with some of what you are saying. Don't kid yourself, if Yellowstone was sitting on top of an 80' thick 9500 BTU coal seam at a 3:1 strip ratio you would see more 8750's in the Lamar valley than elk.

I politely disagree. Go to Theodore Roosevelt national park in ND and you can see the coal seams from the
Interstate as I am sure you could when it was made a national park. People knew there was great thermal coal there, but the uniqueness of the land made it more acceptable to protect instead of mine it.

Then look at the other places in ND where they mine coal, none of them have the aesthetic or cultural value that THRO does, again conservation at its finest.

 

[BigHornRam]

How resistant to fire would this tract be?

Fairly resistant. Its in a cool North facing creek draw. The European forest immediately adjacent to it had a slash fire get out of control about 10 falls ago and lightly burned a couple hundred acres. Thus the clean understory look. When it came to the dense creek stand, the fire stopped. Patchwork management does work.

 

[BigHornRam]

I disagree. Go to Theodore Roosevelt national park in ND and you can see the coal seams from the
Interstate as I am sure you could when it was made a national park. People knew there was great thermal coal there, but the uniqueness of the land made it more acceptable to protect instead of mine it.

Then look at the other places in ND where they mine coal, none of them have the aesthetic or cultural value that THRO does, again conservation at its finest.

I remember visiting there when I was young in the 70's, and seeing a coal seam smoldering from a lightning strike. They can burn for years and years.

 

[antlerradar]

There is also a large amount of oil under Theodore Roosevelt and gold in Yellowstone.

 

[TheJason]

Fairly resistant. Its in a cool North facing creek draw. The European forest immediately adjacent to it had a slash fire get out of control about 10 falls ago and lightly burned a couple hundred acres. Thus the clean understory look. When it came to the dense creek stand, the fire stopped. Patchwork management does work.

Serious question and not meant to be a smart ass. How in the world is this dense creek stand going to be fire resistant? Is the reason it didn't burn more an artifact of the relative humidity and/or moisture content of the fuels? I've seen plenty of cool, north facing draws burn like a sumbitch. Ride over Headquarters Pass and you'll see what I am referencing.

No offense, but I'm skeptical a drainage like this acts as a fire break under extreme environmental conditions as were found in Montana last year. Maybe that's not what you're trying to say?

 

[375H&H]

Serious question and not meant to be a smart ass. How in the world is this dense creek stand going to be fire resistant? Is the reason it didn't burn more an artifact of the relative humidity and/or moisture content of the fuels? I've seen plenty of cool, north facing draws burn like a sumbitch. Ride over Headquarters Pass and you'll see what I am referencing.

No offense, but I'm skeptical a drainage like this acts as a fire break under extreme environmental conditions as were found in Montana last year. Maybe that's not what you're trying to say?

Perhaps the environmental conditions wouldn't have had as extreme a result with more management? They may still happen but not to the catastrophic effect that they did?