spook12
New member
Great story Gerald. Congrats to you and your son.
Young Hunter Responsible for Death.
- Thread starter Gerald Martin
- Start date
noharleyyet
Well-known member
Look at that smile...priceless.
Great to have young hunters enjoying the sport but have serious problems with the "mentoring program". As I understand the initial post, his father (mentor), took an unlicensed hunter out to kill a deer. Is a mentor supposed to teach their children how to ignore/break the law? What kind of example does this set for the kid as he grows up and decides he does not have to abide by the hunting regulations???
Many years ago I watched a family start their child deer hunting at 9 years old (legal age was 12) by letting and encouraging him to kill 4 bucks his first year (limit was one). My guess is that he continued to kill over the limit as he grew up. Great hunter with terrible ethics with no respect for our wildlife.
In Montana, the bill they tried to pass last session would not have required a kid to take a hunter safety course. What is wrong with a kid taking a hunter safety course??? We are seeing a lot of adults who could benefit from such a course as well. The mentoring program concept is only as good as the mentor. Ethics, respect for wildlife and our wildlife laws is critical in the development of all young (and old) hunters. Sadly, over my 55 years of hunting, hunter behavior has changed dramatically and often times, not for the better.
We need young hunters that are properly trained and respect our wildlife resources and laws.
Many years ago I watched a family start their child deer hunting at 9 years old (legal age was 12) by letting and encouraging him to kill 4 bucks his first year (limit was one). My guess is that he continued to kill over the limit as he grew up. Great hunter with terrible ethics with no respect for our wildlife.
In Montana, the bill they tried to pass last session would not have required a kid to take a hunter safety course. What is wrong with a kid taking a hunter safety course??? We are seeing a lot of adults who could benefit from such a course as well. The mentoring program concept is only as good as the mentor. Ethics, respect for wildlife and our wildlife laws is critical in the development of all young (and old) hunters. Sadly, over my 55 years of hunting, hunter behavior has changed dramatically and often times, not for the better.
We need young hunters that are properly trained and respect our wildlife resources and laws.
ingomar - I agree with you - I have seen similar shameful acts by parents; but for clarification in this case:
No minimum age to be mentored in VA
No license required until age of 12 in VA.
No license required to hunt on immediate family's land in VA:
" The unlicensed hunter was accompanied by his father on private property owned by his grandfather. While taking advantage of Virginia’s law that allows for spouses, children , and grandchildren of property owners to hunt on their own land..."
shoots-straight
Well-known member
We had a "Town Hall" meeting a week ago. At that meeting the mentoring program was discussed extensively. We had a bad situation occur during season with youth hunters and those youth situations were being re-evaluated.
A fella stood up and said he had 35 grand children, and each one of those kids were brought up shooting and hunting. In all that time, he said that maybe only one of those kids under 12 years of age, were mature enough, and capable enough to hunt big game.
I have raised 3 kids myself, and took them hunting from an early age. Maybe my kids are slower than most, I don't know, but they were barely ready at 12.
Kudo's to your kid, on a great accomplishment.
A fella stood up and said he had 35 grand children, and each one of those kids were brought up shooting and hunting. In all that time, he said that maybe only one of those kids under 12 years of age, were mature enough, and capable enough to hunt big game.
I have raised 3 kids myself, and took them hunting from an early age. Maybe my kids are slower than most, I don't know, but they were barely ready at 12.
Kudo's to your kid, on a great accomplishment.
A highly controlled hunt on private land where there was one mentor per child - that's a pretty easily controllable situation, especially if the mentor is a great guy like this story. Almost like there was some kind of regulatory plan in place that was enforced by an authority figure.
The big problem a lot of folks had with the MT bill was how loosely it was written. I would wager you could get it through if the proponents would actually work with the opponents and come up with a concept everyone would get behind.
But that's not what we want out of our politics. We'd rather have snark and conflict.
Congrats to the hunter & the mentor. Job well done.
spook12
New member
A highly controlled hunt on private land where there was one mentor per child - that's a pretty easily controllable situation, especially if the mentor is a great guy like this story. Almost like there was some kind of regulatory plan in place that was enforced by an authority figure.
The big problem a lot of folks had with the MT bill was how loosely it was written. I would wager you could get it through if the proponents would actually work with the opponents and come up with a concept everyone would get behind.
But that's not what we want out of our politics. We'd rather have snark and conflict.
Congrats to the hunter & the mentor. Job well done.
Nice sentiment Ben,however the Human Condition ''Requires'' that we reinvent the wheel. It's way to easy to take what works for others and tweak to fit our own needs.
If it were easy, everyone would do it.
Think outside of "us against them" and start thinking like these folks are your neighbors and suddenly, compromise isn't such an ugly word.
spook12
New member
Point taken Ben. We can continue at another time.
Now back to the Man of the hour congrats to Timothy! Welcome to the club.
Now back to the Man of the hour congrats to Timothy! Welcome to the club.
Gerald Martin
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2009
- Messages
- 8,643
Carry on here guys if you wish. That was the intention of wording the post like I did.
I had a lengthy response written up and my computer timed out on me just before I posted. A couple of points. Timothy's hunt was entirely within the legal boundry of Virginia law. I'm not a genius but certainly not stupid enough to brag about knowingly violating a game law.
As far as those incidents involving mentored hunters that garnered negative press in Montana. The problem in those incident was the fault of the ADULT mentors IMO, not the youth hunter pulling the trigger. The idea that somehow when elk are involved ethics automatically go out the window is a straw man argument and does not address the real problems. Restricting the age of participants in the hunt does nothing to teach good ethics to slob hunters.
Another interesting note to Timothy's hunt. In accordance to my instructions due to social sensitivities in the neighborhood, Timothy passed up a shot at the trophy of a lifetime just before he killed his button buck. This fawn's mother happened to be a five year old piebald doe that has become somewhat notorious in the neighborhood. Everyone who see her enjoys the rarity of that experience and it has become an unspoken sentiment in the community that no one shoots her.
It would have been easier to kill that deer than than her fawn that morning but Timothy obeyed my instructions to wait for the brown deer until he shot. In so doing he showed amazing restraint IMO. It would have been entirely legal and ethical to kill the piebald, but he chose to pass her so that everyone could continue to enjoy seeing her.
I had a lengthy response written up and my computer timed out on me just before I posted. A couple of points. Timothy's hunt was entirely within the legal boundry of Virginia law. I'm not a genius but certainly not stupid enough to brag about knowingly violating a game law.
As far as those incidents involving mentored hunters that garnered negative press in Montana. The problem in those incident was the fault of the ADULT mentors IMO, not the youth hunter pulling the trigger. The idea that somehow when elk are involved ethics automatically go out the window is a straw man argument and does not address the real problems. Restricting the age of participants in the hunt does nothing to teach good ethics to slob hunters.
Another interesting note to Timothy's hunt. In accordance to my instructions due to social sensitivities in the neighborhood, Timothy passed up a shot at the trophy of a lifetime just before he killed his button buck. This fawn's mother happened to be a five year old piebald doe that has become somewhat notorious in the neighborhood. Everyone who see her enjoys the rarity of that experience and it has become an unspoken sentiment in the community that no one shoots her.
It would have been easier to kill that deer than than her fawn that morning but Timothy obeyed my instructions to wait for the brown deer until he shot. In so doing he showed amazing restraint IMO. It would have been entirely legal and ethical to kill the piebald, but he chose to pass her so that everyone could continue to enjoy seeing her.
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MTpubliclander
Member
I have nothing at all against this young hunter at all and feel his contributions to hunting and conservation will undoubtedly continue. However in Montana I feel that hunts such as this should only be allowed on private lands such as this young man used, but the problem would be that in mt people would want to be able to do it on public land as well which can lead to bad experiences for young hunters at times. I feel that at 12 a young hunter should be able to decide between right and wrong and be conscious of the decisions they make, at a younger age they run the risk of the parents decisions (if they are the wrong ones) ruining what should be a good experience. In MT leave it 12 I say but in other states where it is easier to control where people are hunting and when, go for it, but here the chance of abuse outweighs the positive.
Topgun 30-06
Active member
From some of the comments in this thread and the lengthy one a few months ago it would lead an outsider like myself that started when I was five to conclude that there are a lot of adult slob hunters and cheaters/violators in MT!!! That seemed to be the main reason that many don't want mentored youth to hunt because the adults aren't ethical and will pass that on to the kid. IMHO whether the kid is 6 or 12 that is going to be passed along and all it does is hurt folks like the OP who had to take his boy to VA. It's a shame that many younguns may be ready at an earlier age than the law allows in MT and have to go outstate like this youngster did to have a legal hunt.
TOPGUN, conclude what you want about Montana. So far we don't want the mentor program. We had a Montana FWP comment meeting last night. The originator of the "mentor" program bill was there. He left early. Guess he cares about hunter numbers, but not if there is a resource there for the "mentored" hunters. mtmuley
Just because... it's this topic again...
Chopping the apple tree down for the sake of a couple bad apples is, imo, senseless. A lousy parent is not struck by the lightning of intelligence because a child turns 12 vs say... 10. Simply put, you can not fix stupid! Just to note: The stupidity of the parent(s) passed down to the child(ren) in the wake of the recent act(s) were of LEGAL youth age...
Leave parenting to the parents. Gov't has established a less than stellar record - none the less parenting on our behalf.
Chopping the apple tree down for the sake of a couple bad apples is, imo, senseless. A lousy parent is not struck by the lightning of intelligence because a child turns 12 vs say... 10. Simply put, you can not fix stupid! Just to note: The stupidity of the parent(s) passed down to the child(ren) in the wake of the recent act(s) were of LEGAL youth age...
Leave parenting to the parents. Gov't has established a less than stellar record - none the less parenting on our behalf.
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