You had me at "Accommodation to use crossbow"

[WIbiggame]

It's the same you just choose it not to be ...Wyoming total archery success rate 10.5% for the year 2020. Hmmm Colorado 10% for 2020

It's not though wyoming has made concessions to have the resource remain sustainable. With shorter season and less licenses. I realize these were in place prior to xbow but they aren't in place in Montana

 

[WIbiggame]

Here's some articles/information to prove some of my points:

Are Crossbows Hurting Deer Numbers?

Is crossbow hunting hurting deer numbers? Here's a look at some statistics that show the impact crossbow hunting has.

www.bowhunting.com

The Crossbow Effect

buckmasters.com

Will Crossbows Ruin Bowhunting?

The Internal Revenue Service has never wavered in defining crossbows: They’re archery gear, even though the bow sits upon a gunstock and releases each shot with a safety-equipped trigger. Bowhunters and other archers, however, will likely never achieve unanimity on crossbows, in use or by...

www.themeateater.com

Thanks for the article but they didn't prove anything I hadn't already said. Midwest deer can sustain it. Heck the WI deer herd sustained an all out killing spree in the early 2000s with ewrn a buck, unlimited free doe tags etc to "control cwd".

I said this was true and than said you are comparing 2 things not even close but comparing whitetails in the Midwest to elk and mule deer of Montana.

The question I posed for you was to show me facts that xbows cause less wounding of animals. Which you won't find.

 

[BucksnDucks]

The idea of hunting a bull during the rut while it's bugling in your face is amazing to me (hasn't happened yet, but I pray it does one day). Try getting one to do that during the regular rifle season (does it happen on extremely rare occaisions, sure, but not like during the primary rut). I hunt with both my crossbow and rifle (and shotgun here in IL for whitetails since rifles aren't allowed). If I really wanted to hunt one during the rut w/ any weapon and had the cash to do it, I could just get a RFW tag in CO... Does that make me an unethical hunter?

No, it doesn't make you an unethical hunter. I imagine most of us prefer hunting bulls in the rut. It does however bring up the question of why there are archery only hunts during this prime time. I would think these archery only hunts exist because of the limitations of the gear and difficulty. I believe adding crossbows to "archery" hunts would be a mistake. It's been debated endlessly. Trad v compound etc.
From experience I think crossbows would be better paired w/ tradition muzzle loaders than archery equipment.

 

[BucksnDucks]

I know this is an old thread, but as a person who is unable to use a compound any more due to a car accident, I've had to avoid MT and go to states allowing crossbows for hunters with disabilities (or all hunters like in WY). I think they should follow suit and allow crossbows for folks with a doctor's note at the very least.

What's your opinion on a guy/gal that doesn't have a disability or injury, just tells the Doc it hurts my shoulder when I pull a bow back and gets a note?

 

[WIbiggame]

It's the same you just choose it not to be ...Wyoming total archery success rate 10.5% for the year 2020. Hmmm Colorado 10% for 2020

Wyoming elk license sales all weapons 2020:
Resident: 60,448
Non Resident: 13,513
Total: 73,961

Montana elk license sales all weapons 2020:
Resident: 90,029
Non Resident: 17,925
Total: 107,954

So yeah not me choosing for it to be different proof it is different.

 

[Mudranger1]

Wyoming elk population 110000
Colorado +280000
Montana 136000

Wyoming archery success rate is 10.5% includes crossbows
Colorado archery success rate 10%
Includes a special disabled crossbow permit
Montana archery success rate is what? (I can't really find a quick answer so enlighten me) I'm guessing it's probably right around 10% tho

My point is unless you show me some ungodly % of elk taken already by archers in Montana the crossbow has a net zero effect on harvest statistics. 10% is 10% no matter the number...the elk will not be eliminated

I'm open for discussion but bring numbers not opinions

 

[SPDSpappy]

What's your opinion on a guy/gal that doesn't have a disability or injury, just tells the Doc it hurts my shoulder when I pull a bow back and gets a note?

I would hope the doc would do an exam before just signing off on the form. Now, as for the person asking, that's completely unethical! This being said, hunters are just a cross section of society and I'm sure there's people out there who do it. My 2 shoulder surgeries and $130k in medical bills kind of help back up my statements though...

 

[SPDSpappy]

@SPDSpappy have you tried using a Canon 35mm? I believe they are allowed under the current rules and regulations. Not trying to be a dick but we cannot make accommodations for every disability knows to man or hunting is just not going to be hunting anymore.

Responses like this are why the anti-hunters always have one up on us. Why not just be supportive of folks getting out to hunt in a manner they're able to go? What do you define as "hunting?" People used to "hunt" with nets (see pic below I took @ the British Museum in London on a hunting trip for red stag, but maybe because I was with a "stalker," that's not really "hunting" to you either), but since you don't use one, maybe they wouldn't see YOU as a hunter either.

 

[SPDSpappy]

No, it doesn't make you an unethical hunter. I imagine most of us prefer hunting bulls in the rut. It does however bring up the question of why there are archery only hunts during this prime time. I would think these archery only hunts exist because of the limitations of the gear and difficulty. I believe adding crossbows to "archery" hunts would be a mistake. It's been debated endlessly. Trad v compound etc.
From experience I think crossbows would be better paired w/ tradition muzzle loaders than archery equipment.

I contend the a large majority of reasons many trad/compound hunters miss out on opportunities on elk are the same with a crossbow:
1) Animal never presents a shot (not going to get through a shoulder (nor a branch) with a crossbow like you could with a rifle)
2) Animal doesn't get close enough (just because a crossbow is ACCURATE at 100 yards, doesn't mean it has the knock-down power at that range, nor can most crossbow hunters make that shot even if it was -- Additionally, just because my .300 Win Mag is more lethal @ 600+ yards than my .30-06, does this mean I shouldn't be allowed to hunt w/ the .300 WM as it extends my range?? -- Finally, many compound bow hunters shoot at the same ranges crossbow folks do (I personally wouldn't shoot past 40 -- wait, that's the same range as Randy limits himself w/ a compound...)
3) Elk heads the other way/doesn't come into calling (see #2)
4) Sneaking into range spooks the elk (crossbows don't help one's scent -- It's also SIGNIFICANTLY harder getting around through brush/woods with a crossbow on your back than carrying a compound bow as my buddies and I proved in CO back in 2020)

 

[BuckRut]

Responses like this are why the anti-hunters always have one up on us. Why not just be supportive of folks getting out to hunt in a manner they're able to go? What do you define as "hunting?" People used to "hunt" with nets (see pic below I took @ the British Museum in London on a hunting trip for red stag, but maybe because I was with a "stalker," that's not really "hunting" to you either), but since you don't use one, maybe they wouldn't see YOU as a hunter either.
View attachment 208132

Your biggest problem is your tone and the sense of entitlement you have on this subject. You don't approach this from a stance of "I can't draw a bow and man it would be nice if the citizens of Montana (for whom these animals are held in trust by the state for) would amend their rules so I can use a crossbow". Your attitude is that you can't draw a bow so "I should be able you use a crossbow if I damn well want to".

 

[BucksnDucks]

I contend the a large majority of reasons many trad/compound hunters miss out on opportunities on elk are the same with a crossbow:
1) Animal never presents a shot (not going to get through a shoulder (nor a branch) with a crossbow like you could with a rifle)
2) Animal doesn't get close enough (just because a crossbow is ACCURATE at 100 yards, doesn't mean it has the knock-down power at that range, nor can most crossbow hunters make that shot even if it was -- Additionally, just because my .300 Win Mag is more lethal @ 600+ yards than my .30-06, does this mean I shouldn't be allowed to hunt w/ the .300 WM as it extends my range?? -- Finally, many compound bow hunters shoot at the same ranges crossbow folks do (I personally wouldn't shoot past 40 -- wait, that's the same range as Randy limits himself w/ a compound...)
3) Elk heads the other way/doesn't come into calling (see #2)
4) Sneaking into range spooks the elk (crossbows don't help one's scent -- It's also SIGNIFICANTLY harder getting around through brush/woods with a crossbow on your back than carrying a compound bow as my buddies and I proved in CO back in 2020)

I appreciate your responses and I'm sympathetic to your particular situation. My experience is archery gear has more limitations and requires more skill than crossbows. I think we can all agree it is easier to pull a trigger than a bow string.
I have not seen a list of reasons including the above that changes my position, which I base on experience.
There's a multitude of reasons that could be added to the above list. The glaring omission above is movement. Whether elk or turkey, the movement required to draw a bow on an animal responding to a call is a major challenge crossbow hunters do not need to contend with.
There's a lot of talk about effective range. If range and efficiency of weapon are the criteria why not open the season to pistols, muzzleloaders, or any short range firearm?

 

[rogerthat]

We need to hurry up and get to the part where we discuss how the modern compound bow is really "a giant laser" super weapon capable of destroying targets at ranges beyond belief. Its coming I bet. This topic has been flogged for years. I have thrown my .02 in on it but really I don't have any compound bow experience so I don't know chit. I think unless you have hunted extensively with both about all you got is the harvest stats from the various state agencies.

 

[OntarioHunter]

Personally, if the state cut out hunting bulls during the rut, I wouldn't shed a tear. I have shot several very nice bull elk and moose and never called any of them in. I never really felt that was hunting. Ranks right up there with baiting in my book. Spot and stalk or tracking in snow, is "pursuit." These days in Montana it seems most of the big bulls are taken out in the early archery season when they're stupid in the rut and vulnerable. Rifle hunters get what's left over. There was a seismic shift to hunting the early season after compound bows were invented. I really am not in favor of increasing that shift again ... in any technological direction. Spy drones, SxS running all over the place, 1,000 yard guns with lighted reticles, etc., etc. The technological line in the sand is already way too liberal in my opinion.

To the OP: So you could shoot a rifle off shooting sticks? Might that be an alternative worth considering? Or do you just have your heart set on suckering some sex crazed big bull in with a bugle for a point blank shot?

 

[WIbiggame]

My point is unless you show me some ungodly % of elk taken already by archers in Montana

I can't provide you with this because the data doesn't exist. Montana's harvest "statistics" are an educated guess based off a few phone calls that don't ask about weapon used.

 

[MTLabrador]

To the OP: So you could shoot a rifle off shooting sticks? Might that be an alternative worth considering? Or do you just have your heart set on suckering some sex crazed big bull in with a bugle for a point blank shot?

Ever archery hunted for elk before?

 

[rogerthat]

Personally, if the state cut out hunting bulls during the rut, I wouldn't shed a tear. I have shot several very nice bull elk and moose and never called any of them in. I never really felt that was hunting. Ranks right up there with baiting in my book. Spot and stalk or tracking in snow, is "pursuit." These days in Montana it seems most of the big bulls are taken out in the early archery season when they're stupid in the rut and vulnerable. Rifle hunters get what's left over. There was a seismic shift to hunting the early season after compound bows were invented. I really am not in favor of increasing that shift again ... in any technological direction. Spy drones, SxS running all over the place, 1,000 yard guns with lighted reticles, etc., etc. The technological line in the sand is already way too liberal in my opinion.

To the OP: So you could shoot a rifle off shooting sticks? Might that be an alternative worth considering? Or do you just have your heart set on suckering some sex crazed big bull in with a bugle for a point blank shot?

Haha. Here we go. That’s what I’m talking about!! Archery is so easy!!

 

[Carnage2011]

Wyoming elk license sales all weapons 2020:
Resident: 60,448
Non Resident: 13,513
Total: 73,961

Montana elk license sales all weapons 2020:
Resident: 90,029
Non Resident: 17,925
Total: 107,954

So yeah not me choosing for it to be different proof it is different.

I don’t disagree with your point, but what is the difference in elk population? Also, success rates in Wyoming are higher.

 

[PrairieHunter]

I'm really not sure I fall on this one. I agree with both sides.

I can see both sides, and they make some valid points, but in the end I can also see that the manufacturers will win this one no matter how individuals feel about it.

Archery and muzzleloader seasons haven't really been "primitive" for quite some time as they keep advancing equipment. But I do respect the heck out of the guys who shot recurves, longbows, and real muzzleloaders when everybody else is cheating with technology.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

I contend the a large majority of reasons many trad/compound hunters miss out on opportunities on elk are the same with a crossbow:
1) Animal never presents a shot (not going to get through a shoulder (nor a branch) with a crossbow like you could with a rifle)
2) Animal doesn't get close enough (just because a crossbow is ACCURATE at 100 yards, doesn't mean it has the knock-down power at that range, nor can most crossbow hunters make that shot even if it was -- Additionally, just because my .300 Win Mag is more lethal @ 600+ yards than my .30-06, does this mean I shouldn't be allowed to hunt w/ the .300 WM as it extends my range?? -- Finally, many compound bow hunters shoot at the same ranges crossbow folks do (I personally wouldn't shoot past 40 -- wait, that's the same range as Randy limits himself w/ a compound...)
3) Elk heads the other way/doesn't come into calling (see #2)
4) Sneaking into range spooks the elk (crossbows don't help one's scent -- It's also SIGNIFICANTLY harder getting around through brush/woods with a crossbow on your back than carrying a compound bow as my buddies and I proved in CO back in 2020)

Doesn't have the knock down power? lordy. A good broadhead will zip through an elk a lot further than anyone has business shooting.

There are very accomplished archers who can shoot a compound accurately at distance but that doesn't just come. I've spent a lot of time practicing with a compound and zero time practicing with a crossbow and I'd be more accurate at distance with the right crossbow. That plus the not having to hold at full draw or draw at all makes a crossbow a more effective killing tool. I will concede that a crossbow would be more cumbersome to carry around the mountain.

 

[Montana_Wanderer]

I have zero experience with crossbows and was amazed by the accuracy after watching some videos. If you want to see a modern crossbow in action check out this video. Out of the box and shooting amazing groups in no time. It also holds two arrows. I would say it surely has an advantage over a modern compound....

Skip to 11:45 to see it in action.

Chris Bee Crossbow Video