Wyoming > Hicks at it again

[BuzzH]

Buzz I would still whine about NR losing half the permits, as they would all be good permits and I'd venture to bet the likelihood of drawing a unit that now takes 3-8 years would take at least double that time. I can whine.. and will because that blows. Most states do that, and worse, but it doesn't make it right. When that happens, I'll be moving there.

I don't disagree...it will blow up point creep and severely lower some of the odds for NR's in some very good areas that they can draw due to the 20% allocation.

I think the point is, that NR's better be aware that there is a chance that at some point Residents will put the right bill together and 90-10 could happen. I would plan accordingly, and I hope you someday move to Wyoming.

 

[BuzzH]

So what you are saying is that NRs should not complain at all that they will be largely moved to the absolute dregs of Wyoming antelope units (probably little public land, poor herds, limited access), but that's not worthy of complaining about? Oh, and their tag prices are likely to jump, what did I hear? 47%?

That would certainly be nothing to complain about.

It's pretty clear to me that if you give to one group, you have to take from another (unless they beam down more antelope from some alien spaceship). And that group that they would take from are a bunch of schmucks for being unhappy about it? Lots of interesting math going on here.

Here's what I know in response to this.

Most NR's blow their points on great areas then shoot a buck they could kill every year in on the "poor" areas you're describing. I can post a metric chit ton of pictures of bucks I've killed, my wife has killed, and my buddies have killed from the "dregs" of pronghorn units that are wayyyyy better than 99% of the bucks NR's kill in areas they blow piles of points on.

So, you really have no point...

For the sake of argument post a picture of the best buck you've taken in Wyoming from a first choice area. I'll post the best buck I've killed with a second choice or leftover "dregs" tag.

Lets use that comparison to define "dregs" of pronghorn areas.

 

[rwc101]

Baggs in Albany county is so far left it ended up in Carbon.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Nice work guys. That's a death worth touting.

 

[MNElkNut]

My twin 11-year old boys are pretty excited to go pronghorn hunting in WY and I just hope that I can give them that opportunity. Thankfully this bill died a horrible death. But the next one? Who knows.

When I step back and look at the big picture, I see many western states poking the golden goose that is nonresident hunters. The flock of geese that is hunting in general is feeling quite a bit of stress and many of the geese are in poor health. The western big game goose is doing well, however, states keep poking and prodding it to get more and more from it.

CWD, hunter recruitment, ball sports, cost, etc are all chipping away at that flock of geese. Did you see the thread here that stated that the Outdoor Foundation recently did a study and found that 48% of Americans over 6 years old did not recreate outdoors even 1 time last YEAR? That stat boggles my mind. Game and Fish agencies are worried and are developing R3 programs to combat the loss.

So on one hand we have a huge effort to hang on to our beloved activity and on the other we have states that have a little niche in demand just keep getting more and more greedy (not picking on any one state, but all of them chip away). Some state, some time, is going to poke that goose one too many times and be left with a mell of a hess. The wave of baby boomers buying licenses is going to crash soon. All of the state agencies are aware of this. There is a financial cliff coming up quickly. The easy solution is to lay that cost on the back of the nonresident. And in the short term, that will work. But that is not a viable, sustainable long term strategy. From a licensing perspective, no one is representing the big picture to each of the states and that worries me. Each state pokes their golden goose without regards for the big picture.

 

[Deleted member 16014]

My twin 11-year old boys are pretty excited to go pronghorn hunting in WY and I just hope that I can give them that opportunity. Thankfully this bill died a horrible death. But the next one? Who knows.

When I step back and look at the big picture, I see many western states poking the golden goose that is nonresident hunters. The flock of geese that is hunting in general is feeling quite a bit of stress and many of the geese are in poor health. The western big game goose is doing well, however, states keep poking and prodding it to get more and more from it.

CWD, hunter recruitment, ball sports, cost, etc are all chipping away at that flock of geese. Did you see the thread here that stated that the Outdoor Foundation recently did a study and found that 48% of Americans over 6 years old did not recreate outdoors even 1 time last YEAR? That stat boggles my mind. Game and Fish agencies are worried and are developing R3 programs to combat the loss.

So on one hand we have a huge effort to hang on to our beloved activity and on the other we have states that have a little niche in demand just keep getting more and more greedy (not picking on any one state, but all of them chip away). Some state, some time, is going to poke that goose one too many times and be left with a mell of a hess. The wave of baby boomers buying licenses is going to crash soon. All of the state agencies are aware of this. There is a financial cliff coming up quickly. The easy solution is to lay that cost on the back of the nonresident. And in the short term, that will work. But that is not a viable, sustainable long term strategy. From a licensing perspective, no one is representing the big picture to each of the states and that worries me. Each state pokes their golden goose without regards for the big picture.

There are certainly a lot of financial and management unknowns for state game agencies. One problem is that it's always going to be somewhat "short term". New commissioners, shifting legislators, financial growth or recession, disease issues, stochastic weather events, etc. are all a part of the picture and can change relatively quickly. IMO the best long term investment for states to make is to develop and maintain hunting opportunity that is in high demand. That obviously includes both habitat integrity and herd management. I have a hard time believing that a handful of states with great hunting are going to get crushed financially if they continue to offer an excellent product. Yes one state or another might push their luck too hard and get in a PR and financial pinch, but I can't imagine it'll be a state with good hunting opportunities. Maybe I'm wrong, just my opinion.

 

[JM77]

I agree with you buzz, and while I’m sure I’ll get blasted over it, I’m sick of residents whining about the left over draw. For Christ sake if you want to hunt an area put it as your 3rd frickin choice and you WILL draw it before the NR has a chance in the initial draw let alone the leftover.

Who is sick of who whining?

 

[The Hedgehog]

For the sake of argument post a picture of the best buck you've taken in Wyoming from a first choice area. I'll post the best buck I've killed with a second choice or leftover "dregs" tag.

I guess I've never drawn a 2nd choice, or even put a 2nd choice on my application.

 

[VikingsGuy]

How else would NR's have been able to get over 50% of the total available pronghorn tags if that wasn't the case and the leftover list shrinking more and more each year?

Not picking on you, at all, but knowing how the draw works, or doesn't work, can really make a difference one way or the other if R's or NR's are hunting pronghorn each year or riding the pine come September.

I had been looking at NR numbers exclusively, never looked at the R numbers as I just assumed they were set by rule and they would all be taken. Seems weird that folks would be griping about reducing NR allocation if they aren’t even using up all the R - but I suppose it is the noisy few who want more tags to select units. But I am a meat/experience hunter so I don’t spend much time worrying about the “great” units.

 

[WapitiBob]

Possible solution would be to allow residents to draw their full allotment of licenses in the initial draw.

 

[TOGIE]

Possible solution would be to allow residents to draw their full allotment of licenses in the initial draw.

if such a proposition were put into effect, and all of the R allotment stayed with Rs entirely whether they were fully awarded or not would make it worse. i think we would all wish they just went 90/10 and kept the trickle down allotment system the same.

 

[BuzzH]

I guess I've never drawn a 2nd choice, or even put a 2nd choice on my application.
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I can post a metric chit ton of pictures of bucks I've killed, my wife has killed, and my buddies have killed from the "dregs" of pronghorn units that are wayyyyy better than 99% of the bucks NR's kill in areas they blow piles of points on

I think you're in the 1%, not the 99%...

 

[BuzzH]

if such a proposition were put into effect, and all of the R allotment stayed with Rs entirely whether they were fully awarded or not would make it worse. i think we would all wish they just went 90/10 and kept the trickle down allotment system the same.

NR's wanting their cake and eating it too...as it were. I think one or the other needs to change.

Either 90-10 or Resident tags leftover from the initial draw are only available to R's in the second draw, including issuing 2nd buck tags from that pool before they go to the NR side.

Another possible solution would be to have a Resident only draw with 80% of pronghorn, 75% of sheep tags etc. as it currently is.

The remaining percentages that are allocated to the NR draw, becomes just an "open draw" open to either R or NR but all applicants apply at the current NR fee structure and everyone in that pool has the ability to buy/use preference points. So, if R's want to apply and pay NR fees, they're in that pool as well as the Resident only draw. That would also allow all the R's that are in favor of a point system for D, E, P to accrue them as well.

Take care of 5 issues, no need to change tag splits, no revenue loss for GF, additional revenue from R's that buy points, more opportunity for R's to draw more tags, and those R's that want to participate in a point system can.

 

[WapitiBob]

if such a proposition were put into effect, and all of the R allotment stayed with Rs entirely whether they were fully awarded or not would make it worse. i think we would all wish they just went 90/10 and kept the trickle down allotment system the same.

90/10 wont make much difference when 80/20 results in nr getting about 50%. The point is, residents want more licenses and forcing them to compete with nr in the leftovers for the other half of their quota, after nr have had their shot at inflated license quotas isn’t going to fly.
Resident “leftovers” should actually be leftovers.

 

[WyoDoug]

Did you seriously just refer to Baggs, WY as a "far-left" constituency? Holy ...! that made me laugh!

Actually, I did not know where Baggs was. Never been there. The website I looked on showed him representing Albany County which is a liberal hole. Website was wrong. Plus I learned he is far from being a libtard.

 

[BuzzH]

90/10 wont make much difference when 80/20 results in nr getting about 50%. The point is, residents want more licenses and forcing them to compete with nr in the leftovers for the other half of their quota, after nr have had their shot at inflated license quotas isn’t going to fly.
Resident “leftovers” should actually be leftovers.

Well said...and I agree.

 

[BuzzH]

Actually, I did not know where Baggs was. Never been there. The website I looked on showed him representing Albany County which is a liberal hole. Website was wrong. Plus I learned he is far from being a libtard.

Study first, open mouth second...Hicks does represent part of Albany County.

Secondly, Albany county would be considered a "conservative hole" in just about any other State than Wyoming.

 

[WapitiBob]

”Another possible solution would be to have a Resident only draw with 80% of pronghorn, 75% of sheep tags etc. as it currently is....”

You might have a winner with this.

 

[rwc101]

When someone living in Laramie County calls Albany County a "hole."

 

[beginnerhunter]

NR's wanting their cake and eating it too...as it were. I think one or the other needs to change.

Either 90-10 or Resident tags leftover from the initial draw are only available to R's in the second draw, including issuing 2nd buck tags from that pool before they go to the NR side.

Another possible solution would be to have a Resident only draw with 80% of pronghorn, 75% of sheep tags etc. as it currently is.

The remaining percentages that are allocated to the NR draw, becomes just an "open draw" open to either R or NR but all applicants apply at the current NR fee structure and everyone in that pool has the ability to buy/use preference points. So, if R's want to apply and pay NR fees, they're in that pool as well as the Resident only draw. That would also allow all the R's that are in favor of a point system for D, E, P to accrue them as well.

Take care of 5 issues, no need to change tag splits, no revenue loss for GF, additional revenue from R's that buy points, more opportunity for R's to draw more tags, and those R's that want to participate in a point system can.

Thanks for your explanation. Is this discussion pertaining to elk and deer or just pronghorn?

If I'm understanding it correctly, it sounds like a 90/10 split would mostly hurt NR in hard to draw units while potentially opening up mid or general units (due to R already getting their tags as a first choice). HOWEVER, if the rules are changed that give the R a crack at 2nd choices, leftovers, or 2nd tags BEFORE the NR can do anything, that would significantly lower NR opportunity. Is that correct? If so, and there is strong appetite for something to change, 90/10 is obviously the better outcome for the NR.

Once again, I'm only buying points for deer and elk. So sheep, pronghorn, bison, unicorn doesnt matter to me.