Wyoming Corner Crossing Defense Fund

[Nameless Range]

Why would the crazies not have pins? Seems like with all the checkerboard that is 100% a place that should be pinned. If that is true there is probably some fences in there that are waaay off.

When it comes to the public land survey system, there are still quite a few unsurveyed sections - these are referred to as protracted blocks. Little more info about em at this link.

Helena-Lewis and Clark National Forest - Maps & Publications

Helena-Lewis and Clark National Forest - Maps & Publications

www.fs.usda.gov

I don't know for sure, but it wouldn't surprise me if these did not have corner pins.

Behold, the protracted blocks of Montana.

 

[Hunting Wife]

If that is true there is probably some fences in there that are waaay off.

Fences are more often placed with logistics in mind rather than on ownership boundaries in many, many places in the West. Often these go back to some handshake agreement decades ago and the parties involved in that original agreement may be long gone.

As someone who works with public/private boundaries daily, I would never counsel anyone to consider a fence line or use line as an indication of a legal property boundary.

 

[JLS]

Fences are more often placed with logistics in mind rather than on ownership boundaries in many, many places in the West. Often these go back to some handshake agreement decades ago and the parties involved in that original agreement may be long gone.

As someone who works with public/private boundaries daily, I would never counsel anyone to consider a fence line or use line as an indication of a legal property boundary.

But, that sacrosanct thingy…

 

[Flynarrow]

In western Montana we frequently found old private/public boundary fences off legal boundaries but almost always to give private landowners a few more acres of free unrestricted grazing of public lands.

 

[BuzzH]

is it normal that a vast majority are or only at section corners?

Section corners are mostly there. I don't recall not finding one I've looked for.

 

[Stone_Ice_1]

Fences are more often placed with logistics in mind rather than on ownership boundaries in many, many places in the West. Often these go back to some handshake agreement decades ago and the parties involved in that original agreement may be long gone.

As someone who works with public/private boundaries daily, I would never counsel anyone to consider a fence line or use line as an indication of a legal property boundary.

I know a very big and popular ranch around Helena that has a fence about 1/4 mile off their property onto public. When you see it, it is obvious why, using the cliffs in the area they only need 100 yards or so of fence where if it was on their property line they would need several miles. The problem is they treat that fenceline as their property line and I personally know they kick people off they area inside that fence that is actually public.

I have spoken with the local FWP warden about this area and after checking it out himself he agreed with me that it was public property inside the fence.

 

[BuzzH]

It's always interesting how "fences of convenience" seem to always conveniently favor private land.

 

[marshman]

I'm not a lawyer, and often find the law to be weird. But I could totally percieve "trespass" where, as antlerradar mentions, someone shoots over your property. Or say, someone builds something that hangs over your property in an intrusive way.

As the FWP position paper and others have mentioned, it really is the de minimis aspect to this that I think is an important attribute of corner crossing. When the pin is known, stepping from one chunk of public land to another, results in a "trespassing" far too trivial to merit consideration by the courts - and more broadly, society. I don't see that conclusion being unsound or invalid, or even incompatible with sacrosanct property rights.

We all know damn well it ain't the actual "trespass" over their corners of earth, that these landowners are concerned about. It's the resulting loss of exclusive access to public lands adjacent to their parcels.

Spot on! Landowners want public land and game next to their piece to themselves. This is the whole of it.

 

[Doublecluck]

Fences, property lines, onx, cadastral, corner crossing. Love hate relationship.

 

[rogerthat]

Having been surveyed and having a “pin” are two different things. A pin implies a more recent survey. Many of the old GLO surveys will just have rocks as survey corners with unique scribing and such on them. Finding the corner “rock” can be very tricky on some sections. A lot of times you need the original survey notes for clues. I would stick to the newly surveyed pinned corners, newly being in the last 50-60 years unless you have a good amount of experience finding the old corners and are confident you can find it without trespassing as well as that’s a different circumstance than the case in Wyoming so there’s that

 

[BrentD]

It's always interesting how "fences of convenience" seem to always conveniently favor private land.

Not always. My fences along public land favor the public.

 

[seeth07]

Not always. My fences along public land favor the public.

There is some public land in NE as well that due to the cliffs, favors the public in some spots, private in others. Installing the fence along steep rocky ledges I can't imagine is easy so it's just where they could put it

 

[wytex]

Yeah, I know some fences that don't favor the private property owner either, they are on the private by several hundreds yards because of the terrain at the boundary with the BLM.

I also know some state corners that have a wire sticking up out of the ground for the corner marker. Those are hard to locate sometimes, lol.

 

[Washington Hunter]

The original surveys by the General Land Office, which later became the BLM, generally set 1/4 corners and section corners. And as mentioned in another post in this thread, they would often use rocks, or in forested areas, they would use a wooden post.

Fences often are a very good indication of where a corner is located. Of course not always, but if the fence is straight, and especially if there's an east-west and north-south fence intersection, that's very likely to be at least where someone at some time believed to be the actual property corner. So I'd go with the fence corner if it's reasonably close to where onx or other GPS app tells you it should be.

 

[BrentD]

There is some public land in NE as well that due to the cliffs, favors the public in some spots, private in others. Installing the fence along steep rocky ledges I can't imagine is easy so it's just where they could put it

Mine favors the public on flat ground. Just not accurately placed and maybe the previous landowner was conservative to be sure he didn't cause a problem. I don't know. But I do know that my fences "cheat me" out of a few nice hardwoods and some space. Nothing major and I don't worry about it.


I will say this however, where corner crossing is going to be prevalent (looking at you Wyoming), I think the landowner that is not going to be satisfied with "close enough" should be incumbent on finding and labeling clearly, exactly where the corner is if a marker is not obviously. There are lots of corners that don't fall on section lines, even in WY.

 

[Sytes]

As someone who works with public/private boundaries daily, I would never counsel anyone to consider a fence line or use line as an indication of a legal property boundary.

If, say in 10th Circuit District, the corners are visible by the definition of a junction of fencing, the landowner would be hard pressed to prove a person failed to cross at a public/private junction.
Either the landowner admits s/he is in violation of the UIA or has no grounds to seek criminal trespass.

 

[cgasner1]

While you guys are all trying to market a new ultra light ladder for this I think the real money make will be a super light compact pin locator. Wonder if kuiu could make a quick release for it also to put it next to my rifle on the pack

 

[Dougfirtree]

While you guys are all trying to market a new ultra light ladder for this I think the real money make will be a super light compact pin locator. Wonder if kuiu could make a quick release for it also to put it next to my rifle on the pack

Makes me wonder if you'd be breaking any laws if you spraypainted pins orange?

 

[cgasner1]

It seems like usually they are marked pretty well where I hunt. Just gonna need someone to push the issue in Montana

 

[BuzzH]

While you guys are all trying to market a new ultra light ladder for this I think the real money make will be a super light compact pin locator. Wonder if kuiu could make a quick release for it also to put it next to my rifle on the pack

Already available, use one at work almost every day...Garrett.