WY Feedground Lawsuit, Bridger-Teton NF

[Deleted member 16014]

I'm surprised no one else has posted this yet, I apologize if I missed it.

http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/environmental/elk-feedgrounds-face-new-suit-to-close-them/article_152ff69a-18a2-5e6e-8127-0e5fb98d123a.html

 

[JM77]

From a lot of the conversation I see on the site, I'm sure there are a lot of conflicted people on this one.

 

[shoots-straight]

I'm not conflicted at all, they need to go! Playing Russian Roulette with our big game is not acceptable.

 

[LopeHunter]

Not fan of feeding elk, deer or any other big game animal as if were livestock crammed into a feedlot. Is the reasoning this keeps the elk around Jackson from ending up in backyards? They feed elk up by Mt. St. Helens and seems is a recipe for too large a herd that cannot sustain itself without continued feeding each winter. Help me understand why I am wrong.

 

[RobertR]

I'll tell you strait up any time western watersheds project and Travis Bruner is involved I will disagree 99% of the time. It seems radical extremist are indicative to Idaho like Ralph Maughan,Ken Cole,Brian Ertz etc. and the list is endless. Don't take these sue happy extremist lightly.
I don't think the feed grounds was a good choice from the start but in this case I think it's one more step to have and promote more wolves.

 

[JM77]

I'm not conflicted at all, they need to go! Playing Russian Roulette with our big game is not acceptable.

Well, I guess we have been spinning the cylinder for over 100 yrs and so far the hammer's never found a loaded round. Let's see the facts when it comes to endangering these elk populations. I cannot recall in my lifetime a situation on any of these feedgrounds where the elk herd was endangered by an outbreak of disease. I trust the wildlife professionals to make the decisions, not some anti-hunting group that wants to replace hunters with wolves, and livestock with bison.

 

[JM77]

Not fan of feeding elk, deer or any other big game animal as if were livestock crammed into a feedlot. Is the reasoning this keeps the elk around Jackson from ending up in backyards? They feed elk up by Mt. St. Helens and seems is a recipe for too large a herd that cannot sustain itself without continued feeding each winter. Help me understand why I am wrong.

Read up on the National Elk Refuge. Better yet, visit a feedground. You obviously haven't been to one...

 

[shoots-straight]

Well, I guess we have been spinning the cylinder for over 100 yrs and so far the hammer's never found a loaded round. Let's see the facts when it comes to endangering these elk populations. I cannot recall in my lifetime a situation on any of these feedgrounds where the elk herd was endangered by an outbreak of disease. I trust the wildlife professionals to make the decisions, not some anti-hunting group that wants to replace hunters with wolves, and livestock with bison.

I've sat in on a few meetings with the experts on Brucellosis, and that live round is getting closer to going off. 30% of the elk on the feed grounds are infected with Brucellosis. Because of the feed grounds! Chronic Waste is knocking at the door there. It's deadly and can be transmitted to humans.

Just because a radical, liberal has a good idea, is not in itself a reason to go in opposition. Guarded and suspicious are where I'd be.

 

[LopeHunter]

Read up on the National Elk Refuge. Better yet, visit a feedground. You obviously haven't been to one...

I shot a bull elk in Area 78 back in Nov 2008. That would be on the other side of the river from the feedlot in Jackson vicinity. I will presume the elk feedlot operates in a similar manner now as in 2008. In '08 was similar to a cattle feedlot where ranchers drop off cattle for finishing prior to market.

I saw dense groups of elk feeding down lines of food placed there while off to the side of the big pasture were truckloads of horn porn connoisseurs. Back then, almost 1 in 5 elk in Wyoming showed up at a feedlot that winter. To eat for months at food in a line. Reminded me of cattle being fed.

What did I miss as I viewed the feedlot? The Wyoming feedlot was one corn flinger away from being a Texas whitetail operation.

 

[RobG]

I've sat in on a few meetings with the experts on Brucellosis, and that live round is getting closer to going off. 30% of the elk on the feed grounds are infected with Brucellosis. Because of the feed grounds! Chronic Waste is knocking at the door there. It's deadly and can be transmitted to humans.

Every time I look into it that is what I hear. Everyone knows it is a huge problem with Brucellosis and a time bomb with other diseases, but they say it is a political impossibility to close them down. The agencies don't have any local support to close them down and the only way it will happen is through a lawsuit... Only with the threat of lawsuits will the agencies be able to justify policy changes in the face of local political pressure.

By the way, MFWP tagged a bunch of elk in the Madison valley (Wall Creek WMA I think) for a bucellosis study and one of the cows wound up in the Wyoming feedgrounds. Any disease outbreak down there will have large consequences.

 

[JM77]

I've sat in on a few meetings with the experts on Brucellosis, and that live round is getting closer to going off. 30% of the elk on the feed grounds are infected with Brucellosis. Because of the feed grounds! Chronic Waste is knocking at the door there. It's deadly and can be transmitted to humans.

Just because a radical, liberal has a good idea, is not in itself a reason to go in opposition. Guarded and suspicious are where I'd be.

Brucellosis?? Oh yes the disease we've been dealing with in elk and bison for about how long? Seems like forever to me. The disease that decimates herds, but never does. The disease that is transmitted from one animal to another by contacting afterbirth? Yes, that's right, afterbirth! Oh, better mention that cow elk give birth in May OFF of the feedground.

SS you'd also better get your facts straight about CWD and elk. I live in central Wyo where mule deer have the highest incidence of CWD than anywhere else, period. Elk are tested at about 5% around here. About a tenth the rate of mule deer. Hasn't increased and during the winter the local elk herd, that can't be controlled because of private land issues, is stacked up like cord wood for months with no CWD increase. Meanwhile the deer, who aren't herded up by any means, keep dying. And your biggest mistake is that there is not one single case of CWD being transmitted to humans. NOT ONE.

Be guarded and suspicious, but get the facts straight.

 

[JM77]

I shot a bull elk in Area 78 back in Nov 2008. That would be on the other side of the river from the feedlot in Jackson vicinity. I will presume the elk feedlot operates in a similar manner now as in 2008. In '08 was similar to a cattle feedlot where ranchers drop off cattle for finishing prior to market.

I saw dense groups of elk feeding down lines of food placed there while off to the side of the big pasture were truckloads of horn porn connoisseurs. Back then, almost 1 in 5 elk in Wyoming showed up at a feedlot that winter. To eat for months at food in a line. Reminded me of cattle being fed.

What did I miss as I viewed the feedlot? The Wyoming feedlot was one corn flinger away from being a Texas whitetail operation.

One big problem with your comment Lope, they don't start feeding until about Feb most years and NEVER during hunting season. If you don't really know what the refuge is like, why bother and comment?

Common practice on here for some to speak about something and skirt the truth?

 

[RobertR]

These elk are habituated to feed grounds and it could result in a die off or a predator pit. It has been ingrained in the offspring to migrate to the feed grounds and hopefully if the feed grounds are eliminated the elk migrate to a winter range instead of hanging around waiting to be fed.
The same thing happened in the 1988 drought. There was a lack of water and high country feed and the elk ended up on the river bottoms and have done it ever since 1988. Wouldn't bother me except you can't hunt them on the private and have to dodge them crossing the highway.

 

[Oak]

Chronic Waste is knocking at the door there. It's deadly and can be transmitted to humans.

Without entering the feed grounds debate, I would like to hear more about this. I was unaware that it could be t transmitted to humans.

 

[Big Fin]

Interesting to read some science on this issue, and the comments here. Just back from three days of Board of Directors Meetings for RMEF. Among the many different Board meetings/topcis, I got to read/listen to some expert opinions on the science of elk, nutrition, habitat, etc.

Some of it surprised me. Some of it related to this feed ground topic.

Science is showing that the greatest threat to elk nutrition is the lack of adequate nutrition on our summer ranges. That goes against all I was taught, but too many studies are showing that for me to deny it, even with my original biases that the constriction to ungulate survival was all about winter range.

In the Greater Yellowstone region, where much of the studies were done, summer nutritional values are not what they once were. Lactating cows have a greater nutritional need from June-August than they do in the winter. By a significant margin. That really surprised me. Since they are not getting the proper nutrition to recover, it is affecting calf survival, breeding cycles, and the ability for animals to get through the winter, even on the best winter range.

Unfortunately, it appears the vocal fringe that gains much support among hunters claims calf survival and low cow nutrition evidence is attributable to predators. The premise they provide is that predation is stressing cows/calves. Yet, the science has a hard time supporting that. The science does support that in the absence of excellent summer nutrition, nutritionally stressed cows/calves are at greater risk of the direct and indirect impacts of predation, but the predation is not the cause, rather an amplified effect.

And the problem with that is this. As hunters, we are taking our eye off the bigger goal. Yeah, we have to let the states manage these predators, but by focusing on strictly predators, hunters are allowing their most treasure resources struggle because we are making habitat and nutrition less of a priority. The next time some hunters tells me all elk problems are related to predators and that the habitat is in great condition, it will take a lot of restraint to not tell him how misinformed he is.

Much was discussed as to feed grounds in Wyoming. As to those feed grounds in WY, a some questions are unanswered; or maybe I should say, some projected outcomes result in differing opinions. Yet, these next two points seem to be universally accepted.

• Every biologist you talk to, just like most hunters, has some gut instinct that if we are feeding wildlife non-native feed in artificial conditions, something is wrong with the bigger picture. Yet, you get differing opinions as to what the NET difference will be to elk when you compare the scenarios of feed grounds v. no feed grounds.
  
• Every biologist agrees elk concentrate in the presence of feed grounds.
• Every biologist agrees that elk will concentrate in different areas, absent the feed grounds.
• Every biologist agrees that concentrations of wildlife, including elk, are at higher risk of a disease outbreak.

No argument by any of the biologists on those topics. Given that, I will take those items as facts.

Where the divergence starts is when you compare the models of disease risk in presence of feed grounds and the models of disease risk in the absence of feed grounds. I'll try to explain.

The management/policy decision comes down to what happens in each scenario; feed ground or no feed grounds. Since there are 23 feed grounds in Wyoming, there exists some pretty good data of what is happening with feed grounds on the landscape. The science shows where the elk are congregated, what they are eating, what their populations are, and samples of health and condition are taken regularly.

That's the easy part. Now, the hard part, and what causes the divergence of some professional opinions - What happens in the absence of feed grounds?

Some things they all seem to agree upon.

• First, elk will have a short-term drop in population levels as the summer range conditions are in bad shape and some elk will not be able to find the minimal nutrition to get through winter, absent feed grounds. Most seem to have the opinion that this will be a 2-5 year dip, before populations start to adjust.
  
• Second; disease, both brucellosis and CWD, is on the landscape near the WY feed grounds.
  
• Third; there will be high concentrations of elk in other areas of WY, even if the feed grounds do not exist. Everywhere Rocky Mountain Elk exist in harsh winters, there are areas of concentration where elk migrate/congregate for winter feeding and environmental benefit (less snow, warmer temps).

Then, there are some things that smart minds hold differing opinions on.

• First; where, and in what densities, the congregations of elk will exist if feed grounds were to be stopped.
  
• Second; what impact the diseases will have on elk herds that are congregated in other locations due to the feed grounds being shut down. Will the disease impacts be less, or be the same, or be worse in congregations all agree will still happen, absent the existence of feed grounds?

All agree that we do not have the data to answer those two points above. There are professional opinions, from respected biologists on both sides of the feed ground/no feed ground camps.

The problem lies in that we do not have science to know what happens in the absence of feed grounds in WY. Some will say we do, but we really don't, as WY started this feed ground program a long time ago and that results in incomplete data as to the situation of Wyoming elk on winter ranges that were void of feed grounds.

Some will say that we can use data from states without feed grounds, say MT. Some say we cannot use that data, as the situation is different, the maturity of diseases presence is different, etc.

Some will point that there is a lower incidence of brucellosis in states like MT that does not feed in the winter. True. Yet, others will point out that the acceleration in the rate of brucellosis prevalence in MT is greater than acceleration rate of prevalence on the feed grounds in WY, projecting that Montana will eventually reach a prevalence rate in their non-feed ground herds that is close to the brucellosis prevalence rate in the WY feed grounds.

Is that because brucellosis has been on the landscape in WY for decades longer than it has been on the landscape in MT? And as such, maybe it has grown to some level in WY that is leveling off, and eventually it will grow to the same rate of infection in MT, before leveling off there, also.

Again, the case can be made that due to the different conditions in states looked to for "no feed ground" models, it is hard to know what will happen in the absence of feed grounds.

I left with some questions answered for my mind.

1. Disease is present, and new diseases are coming to the elk herds of YNP, and thus will spread to the herds that migrate into WY, MT, and ID, whether WY has feed grounds or has no feed grounds.

2. There are a lot of agendas that are quick use the available science as support for their position, no matter the completeness of the science. The "no feed ground" agenda cannot provide good models of what will happen to elk in the absence of feed grounds. The "keep the feed grounds" agenda cannot deny that feed grounds will be a place with high levels of disease transmission.

3. These are the glory days of elk. In the event of continued fire suppression, the herds of elk we enjoy today will not have the adequate summer range nutrition to prosper. Lacking improvement of the vast tracts of public summer range, the large elk herds we enjoy today could soon follow a trend that we have seen in mule deer.

4. That smart minds, much smarter than me, can look at similar data and come to different conclusions or make different projections.

5. That hunters are attributing way too much of the localized elk issues on strictly predation, and as such, we are not focusing on the bigger issues that will make a true difference even with the presence of wolves, cats, bears. Yes, there are predation affects, but most every smart mind on the topic agrees that the localized impacts of predation is best mitigated by improvements to summer range.

I am not smart enough to make a decision, one way or the other, given the available data. Even with complete data sets for all scenarios, people much smarter than I will have to make the final projections as to the outcomes.

No matter the scientific outcome, the best thing hunters can do is to try isolate what is a scientific issue from what is a social/political issue. Interjecting the personal/social/political biases before complete science is available will taint the science that is being produced. I fear that may already be the case in much of this discussion. Just too many agendas already competing for the outcome that favors their interest.

We can all take away from this situation that fact that altered landscapes create a lot of management problems for elk and other wildlife. We can also take away that focus on habitat is going to do the greatest good for elk and wildlife, no matter what the decision is for the feed grounds in Wyoming. And, we can take comfort in knowing that a focus on improved summer range will have more benefit to elk than we once thought.

RMEF has done tons and tons of work in WY; most of it habitat work focused toward helping improve the native landscapes to allow elk to be less dependent upon the feed grounds. I would hope that no matter what side of the feed ground discussion you are on, you support improvement to the native landscapes in manners that help elk and other wildlife.

We have many challenges facing elk, some localized, some regional, some national. The biggest challenge we will face for elk is breaking the gridlock on land management policy that favors fire suppression and prevents the Forest Service and BLM from implementing other activities that could provide benefits to the condition of our summer ranges.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

As always, another well thought out and well written post Randy!!!

 

[Stillhunterman]

Good info Randy, thanks. The nutritional deficiencies in ungulates can be seen across the spectrum with Big Horn Sheep, Moose, Elk, Mule Deer and even Blacktail Deer. We've been looking hard at that possibility for Mule Deer. There is a bit of science out there but not nearly enough is being done. Available micro nutrients on summer ranges can have a tremendous impact on pregnancy and fecundity. Lots of work to be done.

Would you be able to post or send me links to the studies you are referring to in YNP? I've read the abstracts on the Middleton, Creel and other studies but can't find the entire studies on line. Would appreciate any help. You may be interested in this older study on one micro nutrient (mineral) in an elk study done in Oregon:

http://www.dfw.state.or.us/wildlife...iumlevelsandproductivityin3Oregonelkherds.pdf

Thanks a bunch.

 

[TheJason]

Good info Randy, thanks. The nutritional deficiencies in ungulates can be seen across the spectrum with Big Horn Sheep, Moose, Elk, Mule Deer and even Blacktail Deer. We've been looking hard at that possibility for Mule Deer. There is a bit of science out there but not nearly enough is being done. Available micro nutrients on summer ranges can have a tremendous impact on pregnancy and fecundity. Lots of work to be done.

Would you be able to post or send me links to the studies you are referring to in YNP? I've read the abstracts on the Middleton, Creel and other studies but can't find the entire studies on line. Would appreciate any help. You may be interested in this older study on one micro nutrient (mineral) in an elk study done in Oregon:

http://www.dfw.state.or.us/wildlife...iumlevelsandproductivityin3Oregonelkherds.pdf

Thanks a bunch.

I believe it was the Absoraka Elk study done by WYGF.

http://www.wyocoopunit.org/index.php/kauffman-group/search/absaroka-elk-ecology-project/

 

[Stillhunterman]

Thanks JLS, will check it out.

 

[JM77]

Thanks Randy for your info. I will stand by my discomfort that Western Watershed Projects is taking something to court that belongs in our professional wildlife managers hands.

Am I a fan of feeding wildlife? No. But to paricipate here in a discussion with those, who make statements about a century long practice that is working, while being totally unaware of what's really going on, can be frustrating. Not to mention some completely false comments.

This isn't the first forum I've been on, so I completely understand. I guess.