Wolves are legal????????

[Oak]

Schmalts: No, I don't know him really, but I think I've talked to him on the phone before.

What IS Ithaca's hidden agenda, Paul? Enlighten those of us who are not able to read into what Ithaca REALLY means when he says that he wants wolves delisted so that they can be managed at the minimum population necessary to keep them delisted. I guess I'm just not good at deciphering his code talk.

Oak

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-13-2003 11:44: Message edited by: Colorado Oak ]</font>

 

[Ithaca 37]

Paul, You must be crazy! I'm the one who has been saying all along that the best thing to do is get them delisted as soon as possible and control them at the minimum numbers needed to keep them off the list.

I've posted my opinions about all the "statements" some legislators in all the Western states have tried to make that were nothing more than ridiculous obstacles to the delisting process. Go back and read my first paragraph of the post in this topic on this date: posted 02-08-2003 11:35

"I'm 100% in favor of hunting them, but we have to live with the Endangered Species Act which sets minimum levels of wolf populations to keep them off the Endangered list. I'd like to see them controlled at that minimum level. There doesn't seem to be any way to get the ESA changed."

How much more clear do you want it!!!

"misinformation coming from Ithaca's posts." Can you be specific about some of it? What, exactly, are you talking about?

"your hidden agendas," What, exactly, are they? I've always wondered what some of you were talking about!

"Wolves should be transfered from endangered to threatened status in the next few weeks." I doubt it will happen that soon, but maybe. I was figuring by next Fall.

"The ESA is being worked on in Congress as we speak, and positive changes will be coming soon. Ithaca, you can't hide behind the ESA rules too much longer."

I'm not hiding behind them. All I've ever said is that it's a law and until it's changed we have to live with it. Politicians have tried to change it many times without any success so far.

Have you noticed all the Hunt Talk posters who have been saying that wolves will never be delisted? I'm the one who's been optimistic about it.

I'm sure not going to comment on whatever the latest WY plan is until I see it, but I hope it's an acceptable one so that WY isn't holding up the delisting process any longer. I'm sure not the one who ever held it up, I've been trying to speed it up.

So where are you coming from with all those wild ideas about me? And don't forget to explain my agenda! I'd like to know what it is!

 

[Nut]

Yea mtmiller I am wondering why this is in the elk forum . But where the heck do we put it?

.
.
.
.
No not there either

 

[Michaelr]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I can do the whole job in less than 1 hour, total time <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I bow before the master

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-13-2003 15:26: Message edited by: michaelr ]</font>

 

[Bullhound]

Reintroduction is a farce. The were wiped out for a reason.

Ithica,

I'd like to ask a couple questions of you. What do you think of Idaho's Wolf Management Plan? What do you think the wolves here in Idaho will eat once the elk and deer numbers are way down. They're dropping now. Do you realize that only a portion of wolf kills can actually be documented. Many, many, kills and dissapearances in areas that have had wolves reintroduced, that are suspected wolf kills, are reported as unexplained losses.

One thing is for sure. When you only see sign, there are wolves around. When you SEE WOLVES, there are way too many around. I, for one, am glad to see this in the elk forum because elk hunters need to be aware.

 

[Deerslayer]

Did somebody "cry wolf"?

 

[Ithaca 37]

Bullhound, Which plan? Can you show us the plan you're talking about?

As for your other question, it depends on how many wolves there will be. What do you think the population level will be set at? Then I'll tell you how many deer and elk they might eat.

Do you know the lion population of ID and how many elk and deer they eat? Do you think a wolf eats more meat than a lion?

 

[Ithaca 37]

I started a skinning and butchering discussion in Survival. I hope you'll all join in.

 

[ELKCHSR]

Been there done that!!!

 

[Ithaca 37]

Well, I started a topic on trapping rats too.

 

[tmsander]

So what is this allmighty 'reason' wolves were wiped out for in the first place...that a number on here keep bringing up? The history that I've seen/read on the topic suggests it was mostly ignorance and fear.

I'm no fan of the wolf and don't like these reintroductions at all, but falling back on the reasons for the original eradication is and makes us look stupid.

 

[ELKCHSR]

Been there done that to Ithica, good posts. Thanks!!!

 

[Muledeer4me]

"What IS Ithaca's hidden agenda, Paul? Enlighten those of us who are not able to read into what Ithaca REALLY means "

Oak, LOL you have to be joking.
If you or anyone believe's someone without an agenda would post a link to such a nut case site ,I have to wonder about there agenda.
Its a WELL KNOWN fact that Ithaca is a rancher hater,a Jon Marvel Supporter,and from the looks of his links borderline supporter of alot of the anti-movements.

The wolf fits nicely into the agenda of anit-hunters,anti-grazings.
Im not saying that EVERYONE that supports the wolf reintroduction is an anit.
But even the hunting org. and Fish & Game departments have said we could see shorter hunting seasons because of the wolf.
Placing them around populated areas was a boneheaded movement in the first place.
Im not against the wolf from a fear standpoint,and I have seen some here in Idaho ,there was no fear on either ours or the pack's part. I think its really unfair to the people that were living closes to these areas and to the wolves themselfs ,because they are being killed for doing what wolf's do.
http://www.compassionatespirit.com/
Look close at the link,it stinks of an agenda.

 

[BuzzH]

MD4ME said, "Placing them around populated areas was a boneheaded movement in the first place."

Oh really, I didnt realize the Selway Bitterroot/Frank Church Wilderness had a heavy population of people in it? I also noticed several million people have taken up residency in Yellowstone Park and the surrounding area as well?

Could you provide any proof that a wolf was placed near a large population of people? For Christ sake, enough with the lies, you look foolish.

 

[BigHornyRam]

Ithaca,

While you claim to be a supporter for delisting and a proponent for strict wolf management, your posts say otherwise. Here are few of many examples.

You call MT Rep Joe Balyeat, a man you have never met, a wacko. Joe is a strong proponent of what you claim you stand for. Joe is hands down more knowledgable about the wolf issues than you. I would think you would support someone like this, not bash him.

You use dated and incorrect material from anti hunting organizations to claim there is no problem with elk calf numbers in the Yellowstone area. You refuse to go see for yourself what is really happening, and would prefer to rely on Park officials word for your proof. Seems to me you really do not want to know.

What is your agenda? Distruction of the western livestock industry for starters. Sooner or later you will slip up and I'll catch you on others. By the way, when was the last time you hunted antelope in Wyoming?

I will post a link to the lastest Wyoming management plan information in SI. We can annalyze it over there.

Paul

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-14-2003 09:39: Message edited by: Paul C ]</font>

 

[Jack O'Conner]

Shortly after the colossal buffalo herds were wiped out by hide hunters in the 1870's, the wolf population went up. Abundant rotting carcasses were found nearly everywhere from Canada down through the Dakotas and south into Kansas and Texas.

At the same time, cattle and sheep were brought in by the train loads. Guess what happened? Wolves enjoyed fresh meat again.

Cattlemen Associations were formed and they lobbied for wolf elimination. Poison was widely used. But gov't paid hunters were also quite popular. Grizzlies and mt. lions were quickly added to the "reduce list". For the next several decades, beef and sheep industries flourished.

Wildlife populations recovered from the market hunting days. Good game management practises prevailed with the very notable exception of National Park lands. Our Federal Gov't has been quite poor in managing increasing game populations. Isn't it interesting that Lassen deer starve but Yellowstone elk are eaten by wolves?

Then the Clintons and their agendas entered the picture. Western states with almost no representation in Washington DC have been targeted for wolf re-introduction. No, we do not consider Tom Daschle as representing us in Washington. His speeches to California supporters are 100% different than his speechs here "at home". The man is a deceiver.
Jack

 

[Ithaca 37]

Paul, "You call MT Rep Joe Balyeat, a man you have never met, a wacko." You think I have to meet him? You never met me, did you? Yet you have some real strong opinions about my "secret agenda"

. People who claim they know everyone else's agenda are usually good candidates for joining some conspiracy group. I thought Joe was making some pretty far out claims.

I use the most recent articles I can find on the Internet. Why don't you supply something more recent?

I just don't have time to run over to Yellowstone simply because you want me to. Why don't you go to Nevada and look at some BLM that's been destroyed by ranchers? Because you don't want to know the truth?

If I were going to start speculating on poster's agendas maybe I'd say your agenda is the extermination of all wolves. See how that game can be played?

In fact, Paul, your agenda is too obfuscate the wolf issue.

"Sooner or later you will slip up and I'll catch you on others" Sounds like you have an obsession. Maybe your agenda is to discover conspiracies!

Why don't you go find out where Elvis is hiding?

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-14-2003 10:48: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>

 

[Muledeer4me]

"Could you provide any proof that a wolf was placed near a large population of people? For Christ sake, enough with the lies, you look foolish. "

Sooooo Buzz,are you saying that the wolves know and respect the boundrys around those areas they were dropped in?
That the drop areas were far enough away from towns that no one would have to deal with them getting into trouble?
Im not following your train of thought on that one.

 

[BuzzH]

Sooo, MD4ME, when was the last time you heard a wolf howling in downtown Boise ID? Bozeman MT? Sheridan WY? Any school children been taken away by the big-bad wolf in any of those towns lately?

Just what I thought.

You make it sound like the wolves were released in the middle of every large town in the West.

I'll guarantee you the Fish and Game receives one hell of a lot more complaints each year, IN POPULATED areas about lions, bears, and deer than wolves, by a huge margin. In fact, could you provide even one instance of a wolf causing any damage to anyone in a "populated" area? I dont mean some hon-yocker living in the woods, I mean someone living in a decent sized Western U.S. city.

Good luck trying to dig up proof, you'll find it about the same time you find the easter bunny.

 

[Bullhound]

Ithica,

I'm not trying to just bash you here but for someone who claims to know so much about what we will and will not have to put up with as far as wolves I'm amazed that you haven't spent the time to find our state's Wolf Plan. It was provided last March by the Idaho Legislative Wolf Oversight Committee.

The funny thing is that the plan points out some things that are happening now. One of those is the fact that the Wilderness areas, such as the Selway Bitteroot, or the Hump area, used to be places where one could go to get away from people and get into alot of elk. Now you go there just to get away from people cause the elk aint there any more. Not in the numbers they were just a few short years ago. The wolf is starting to knock the hell out of the elk population in these areas. When the numbers of elk and deer drop sufficiently, the wolf will continue to move into more and more areas in search of food. Yeah, the wolf is just doing what wolves do. Problem is, by the time people wake up, and realize exactly what these animals are capable of, the game numbers will be really hurting. That is the only problem I have with Idahos' plan. The intent is to control the wolves that have been crammed down our throat. I just feel that the ungulates will be severely hammered before the control measures are taken. Not to mention the cost of the control measures. I feel that the state is at least trying to make the best of a bad apple ( or turd) that was handed to them.