#Winning = more public land poop

[Irrelevant]

Local Forest Service employees sound the alarm on federal staff cuts

WENATCHEE — Nearly 40 employees of the Okanogan-Wenatchee National Forest lost their jobs last week alongside thousands of federal workers across the country.

www.ncwlife.com

Additionally, Wickenheiser said rangers fly out around 10,000 pounds of human waste every year. Without the staff to do that, he warned of human waste problems.

“A lot of that waste just drains into the lake if it's left unattended,” he said. “It's not soil that will decompose human waste because it's above the tree line in some sections.”

One of our municipal clients has a drinking water intake below these areas, they're looking at legal recourse. Unfortunately, the only viable outlook will be closures. And while I generally would support that, it'll most like just push the problem to other areas.

 

[Big Fin]

We are discussing the impacts these cuts will have, as part of our Fresh Tracks Weekly Deeper Dive segment for Feb 28. The crew said we should have a thumbnail of me at a Gallatin NF Campground outhouse with the old Cousin Eddie statement, "Shitter's Full, folks!"

Seeing the tsunami of people coming to Montana each summer, the number of full shitters and the stench and filth associated with such will be hard to imagine. I expect a ton of complaints, but such is the shitty situation we are going to have.

 

[Johnny Bravo]

Last year when I was in Zion national park we took the bus to stop 9, furthest from the entrance. Every single one of the potties had no paper and were overflowing and if memory serves there were more than 16 of them. The park ranger finally showed up after many of us complained…why he put paper in overflowing potties was beyond me. If these folks could not do their job last year I can’t imagine what it will be like this year.

 

[ccc23454]

We are discussing the impacts these cuts will have, as part of our Fresh Tracks Weekly Deeper Dive segment for Feb 28. The crew said we should have a thumbnail of me at a Gallatin NF Campground outhouse with the old Cousin Eddie statement, "Shitter's Full, folks!"

Seeing the tsunami of people coming to Montana each summer, the number of full shitters and the stench and filth associated with such will be hard to imagine. I expect a ton of complaints, but such is the shitty situation we are going to have.

I hope it's a fair and not skewed look at actual cuts and Forest Service overall performance fiscally. I think it will impact some aspects of recreational management but I also firmly believe now the default answer of things not getting done will become "they terminated those employees ".

 

[seeth07]

I hope it's a fair and not skewed look at actual cuts and Forest Service overall performance fiscally.

I'd love for the discussion to also go into the irony of how Western Residents whine and complain all the time about their home being "loved to death" with way too many visitors and when the administration takes action that almost certainly will have an end result of less visitors due to the need to shut places down due to less staff its still just whining and complaining. Can't make em happy I guess.

 

[Forkyfinder]

I'd love for the discussion to also go into the irony of how Western Residents whine and complain all the time about their home being "loved to death" with way too many visitors and when the administration takes action that almost certainly will have an end result of less visitors due to the need to shut places down due to less staff its still just whining and complaining. Can't make em happy I guess.

Thats the immediate result but not the long term intent. I think youre aware.

 

[Forkyfinder]

I hope it's a fair and not skewed look at actual cuts and Forest Service overall performance fiscally. I think it will impact some aspects of recreational management but I also firmly believe now the default answer of things not getting done will become "they terminated those employees ".

You'll have some morale issues when people who actually have been promoted recently, likely for doing a good job - lost their job because probationary rules.

 

[noharleyyet]

Thats the immediate result but not the long term intent. I think youre aware.

I think's seeth's point is more to the thin line of perception between 'that's none of your business, and, let's all pitch in for the betterment of'...

 

[Dieseldog]

Last year when I was in Zion national park we took the bus to stop 9, furthest from the entrance. Every single one of the potties had no paper and were overflowing and if memory serves there were more than 16 of them. The park ranger finally showed up after many of us complained…why he put paper in overflowing potties was beyond me. If these folks could not do their job last year I can’t imagine what it will be like this year.

Sounds like an on going problem. And exactly why some things need to be shook up. Incompetence at all levels.

 

[Big Fin]

I hope it's a fair and not skewed look at actual cuts and Forest Service overall performance fiscally. I think it will impact some aspects of recreational management but I also firmly believe now the default answer of things not getting done will become "they terminated those employees ".

I think it will be fair. Let's face it, there have been many administrations that have had full control of both houses of Congress and the White House, yet they didn't do the things that would have improved Federal land management. Shame on them. (And edited to add: Shame on us for not demanding more accountability.)

I'm a smaller government, lower taxes kind of guy. Lowering tax bills is how I made a very comfortable livelihood that allows me to do this gig without any regard for profits. I also know a thing or two about how to run a business. Cutting contracts and waste might work and should work. Cutting personnel costs will show some benefit if, and that's a big IF, done with some sanity and strategy.

There once was a push to force the Federal Government to use "Zero-based budgeting." Carter had considered it and so did Reagan. Every agency budget would start at zero and be justified from there, rather than "take last year's numbers and add 10%." None of that took hold, as the Beltway lobbyists and both parties saw that as problematic to the folks paying their salaries. So, it died, and with it died much chance of the US Government operating more efficiently.

In my thirty years of engaging in hunting and conservation politics, I've learned that both sides are good at capitalizing on the political moments without much concern of the long-term consequences. Just the way politics and lack of accountability have morphed in this country. Madison wrote in great detail his concerns about "factions" and their ability to disregard the rights of the people. Even with all of his wisdom and foresight, I suspect he could have never predicted what we are witnessing the last 30 years.

It is hard to argue that you want better land management when you come in with a sledgehammer where in the business world a knife or scalpel would be used. Nobody would run a business by firing everyone who meets a certain employment status (probationary, even if you are a long-time employee whose promotion put you in a probationary status). You wouldn't implement a hiring freeze when using seasonal workers get you the best return on your assets and does the best job of keeping your assets from going up in smoke.

You can't cut essential programs and essential employees necessary for better land management and then bitch that their isn't better land management. You can't claim the Federal lands are not getting a good return on their money, yet in other votes you refuse to change the Hard Rock Mining Act of 1872 and charge a royalty to mining companies. You can't complain about Federal ROI on those lands, yet vote to keep grazing rates 5-10% of grazing rates on adjacent state and private lands; or vote to keep Federal O&G royalties way below what states and private land owners charge.

And in this instance, the folks cheering on these personnel cuts "in the name of efficiency" are likely to be the ones bitching when they see less land management. That has been the mode of operation since I've been involved and I don't expect it to be a different mode of operation.

This will have consequences. Will it reduce the waste and inefficiency in Federal agencies? I doubt it, given the way they are going about it. Could they have done it in a way that does reduce waste and inefficiency? Absolutely, but that would have required application of a lot more business ideas, none of which would allow for the headline grabbing soundbites.

If the history that has formed my crystal ball has provided any insight, this will likely go down as one of the greatest lost opportunities in my lifetime. It will be used as a continuance of the "defund, demoralize, and devalue" approach the anti-public land crowd has used since the 1980s. Their goal always has been, and always will be, to make the public lands such a burden through defunding and lack of Congressional leadership, that eventually Americans will lose much interest in these lands and view them as a liability to get rid of. Seeing the far fringes be given the wheel on public lands, it's hard for me to see this as any thing other than a huge squandered opportunity and a fulfillment of the dreams of those who've been strategic in their fifty-year plan to rid Americans of their public lands.

I know the hyper-partisans, or even the mildly partisans, will criticize that assessment. That's fine. I expect such from folks trained to use party politics as their first level of filter. As the political pendulums have swung in my lifetime, neither party has really cared for the interests that exist mostly in the middle, rather they want to use any opportunity, in this case public lands and conservation funding, as spoils of political victory, and in the process limiting any forward progress to those few instances when the political stars align for a week or two.

Not sure I can fit all of that into a 20-minute segment. Summary will be, "Shitter's full; that's what the majority of us voted for, right?"

 

[Dougfirtree]

It is hard to argue that you want better land management when you come in with a sledgehammer where in the business world a knife or scalpel would be used. Nobody would run a business by firing everyone who meets a certain employment status (probationary, even if you are a long-time employee whose promotion put you in a probationary status). You wouldn't implement a hiring freeze when using seasonal workers get you the best return on your assets and does the best job of keeping your assets from going up in smoke.

I look forward to that discussion, Randy. Thanks, as always, for being a platform for public lands. With regard to running government like a business, and particularly our public land managing agencies, I couldn't help but think of this:

 

[88man]

"You can't cut essential programs and essential employees necessary for better land management and then bitch that their isn't better land management. You can't claim the Federal lands are not getting a good return on their money, yet in other votes you refuse to change the Hard Rock Mining Act of 1872 and charge a royalty to mining companies. You can't complain about Federal ROI on those lands, yet vote to keep grazing rates 5-10% of grazing rates on adjacent state and private lands; or vote to keep Federal O&G royalties way below what states and private land owners charge."

Exactly why we need DOGE to look into so many of these type of issues

 

[SAJ-99]

...that almost certainly will have an end result of less visitors due to the need to shut places down due to less staff...

Almost certainly result in less visitors? I'm not sure I would put much money on that bet. Possible, I guess, but mostly these visitors are people who have utilized federal lands for a long time and aren't going to switch to a Disney cruise because of this. Maybe some National Memorials will lose rangers that explain the history of the place and see some cuts from staffing shortages, but I don't think people will change significantly for years. But I would say the stuff most relevant to the HT crowd is an increase in overall risk. And the risk of the toilet being full might be the least of the worries.

“People will still just make fires wherever they see fit, because they just want to,”

 

[Irrelevant]

I'd love for the discussion to also go into the irony of how Western Residents whine and complain all the time about their home being "loved to death" with way too many visitors and when the administration takes action that almost certainly will have an end result of less visitors due to the need to shut places down due to less staff its still just whining and complaining. Can't make em happy I guess.

Can you please provide a list of all the public land locations that have been shut down? Because I think that's just speculation based on a logical conclusion. Well, logic checked out on Jan 20th, so why would you try to apply it here? We're in the age of brain surgery with a bull dozer.
Even if areas are closed, do you think closing a trailhead or a parking lot is actually going to stop users? Why would they? There is no enforcement. I already know of two groups that "jokingly" talked about backpacking in this area because they'll never statistically draw a permit (the current lottery is around 1/10,000) and there is no more enforcement. The only results will be more shit, more trash, more haphazard parking, more public land degradation... oh, and the cost savings from those seasonal minimum wage wilderness rangers. #winning.

In all honesty, this does make me support transferring public lands to the states, that way some orange asshat from new york, who couldn't tell a whitetail from a jackalope doesn't ruin my backyard.

 

[TOGIE]

i bet we could rip this thing on to 6-7 pages before a lock yeah?

 

[seeth07]

Can you please provide a list of all the public land locations that have been shut down? Because I think that's just speculation based on a logical conclusion. Well, logic checked out on Jan 20th, so why would you try to apply it here? We're in the age of brain surgery with a bull dozer.
Even if areas are closed, do you think closing a trailhead or a parking lot is actually going to stop users? Why would they? There is no enforcement. I already know of two groups that "jokingly" talked about backpacking in this area because they'll never statistically draw a permit (the current lottery is around 1/10,000) and there is no more enforcement. The only results will be more shit, more trash, more haphazard parking, more public land degradation... oh, and the cost savings from those seasonal minimum wage wilderness rangers. #winning.

In all honesty, this does make me support transferring public lands to the states, that way some orange asshat from new york, who couldn't tell a whitetail from a jackalope doesn't ruin my backyard.

Have you not read any of the pages of the other threads with the comments relating to "I hope your willing to hike in miles now that this gate is going to be closed due to no one to take care of the road".

I'm not the one directly jumping to that conclusion but the Western Folks on here are.

 

[seeth07]

Unfortunately, the only viable outlook will be closures.

O and you said so yourself...

 

[sapperJ24]

"You can't cut essential programs and essential employees necessary for better land management and then bitch that their isn't better land management. You can't claim the Federal lands are not getting a good return on their money, yet in other votes you refuse to change the Hard Rock Mining Act of 1872 and charge a royalty to mining companies. You can't complain about Federal ROI on those lands, yet vote to keep grazing rates 5-10% of grazing rates on adjacent state and private lands; or vote to keep Federal O&G royalties way below what states and private land owners charge."

Exactly why we need DOGE to look into so many of these type of issues

To be clear, these are Congressional issues not agency workforce problems. Only Congress can change the law.

Agencies including the Forest Service are hamstring by outdated laws that only Congress can change. Among these are significant hurdles and inefficiencies in procurement and contracting. But none of that has been addressed.

 

[SAJ-99]

I'm not the one directly jumping to that conclusion but the Western Folks on here are.

This is all driven by political lobbyist for Master Lock and Home Depot to sell more locks and chains.

 

[Bigjay73]

Did 10% of the people do 80% of the hands on work?