sneakypete
Well-known member
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Great video, thanks for sharing!
Wild & Clear
- Thread starter MontanaWild
- Start date
RobG
Well-known member
I think some are missing what these guys did. Fishing out of season, fishing in restricted areas, harming a fragile resource, etc. I am not talking about the permit, but rather what and when they were fishing. Please read the latest link....the pleaded guilty to many charges.
RobG
Well-known member
It seems these days most don't take the "no targetting bull trout" seriously, i.e. we are wink wink fishing for cutthroat with a 2" streamer. They, on the other hand, just came out and said they were targetting them and documented it in places that were obviously not open.
Interestingly enough nobody here said anything about the bull trout but that was the violation that jumped out at me when I opened the thread this morning.
I gave up on calling out people sporting pics of bull trout with big streamers in their mouth a few years ago. The really bad thing is handling the ESA-listed fish for 12 minutes after it was caught. Didn't see that the first time through. Surprised they didn't dangle a hooked cut in front of one trying to film it getting hammered.
But as far as self incriminating videos go, I found it much better produced than anything the Bundy clan put out. I give it 4 stars.
The Hedgehog
Well-known member
I wonder if the $5950 in fines paid for the years and "hundreds of hours" invested in this high-profile case?
Why does this bring back memories of the Lewton sting? It kind of makes me want to go shoot some eagles, or maybe lure a sea turtle over a block of tannerite.
Had it been me, back in the day, there would have been dynamite involved. Footage wouldn't have been nearly as crisp though.
Why does this bring back memories of the Lewton sting? It kind of makes me want to go shoot some eagles, or maybe lure a sea turtle over a block of tannerite.
Had it been me, back in the day, there would have been dynamite involved. Footage wouldn't have been nearly as crisp though.
belly-deep
Active member
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Yeah that is true. We should probably just quit prosecuting game violations since they almost always don't pay for the effort it takes.
The Hedgehog
Well-known member
My guess is a visit by some uniformed men, back in 2012, with a stern warning would have had the same result, and saved EVERYBODY a pile of money. But I could be wrong - wouldn't be the first time. Good headlines for the FWP though, $5950 in fines for squeezing some fish, which now sets above the recent headlines about the plan to kill half the elk in MT over the next few years.
mdunc8
Well-known member
Maybe they're killing all the deer and elk, so they can focus more attention on the critters that really matter
Gerald Martin
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I read this news this morning with mixed feelings...
I would be interested to read a complete list of the individual charges and fines associated with each charge. Reading it all as a lump sum settlement leaves me with more questions than answers.
It's kind of ironic that this thread surfaces once again as I've got a pretty interesting history with this thread and parallel events that have played out in my life.
Having read through this entire thread again, I'll stick my neck out and give my take on the matter. On the subject of intentionally targeting bull trout in illegal waters and the charges resulting from that, I'll not lend any defense or sympathy if they were indeed guilty of that. I am not familiar with those waters and took it for granted that what they were doing concerning the fishing was completely above board. If (and it appears they did) they disregarded fishing regulations they should be liable for that.
On any charges resulting from filming without a permit or in the wilderness, I stand by all my earlier comments. I wonder how much of the fines they paid were related to not having permits?
When an agency tasked with permitting commercial activity makes the cost of being legal completely out of line with the potential for profit, they only encourage violations and ensure noncompliance by the majority of users. At $150 per day, the costs of permitting are way beyond the ability of anyone but major TV shows to bear. If you figure videoing for 40-50 days a year, even paying several thousand dollars in fines in cheap compared to having to get permits.
Meanwhile, anyone who wants to take still photos on USFS land and sell them for whatever a customer will pay, has no need to be permitted.
If the USFS and other agencies cared at all about facilitating legal filming and promotion of public lands recreation, they would create a yearly permit for several hundred dollars.
I have a hard time mustering much outrage against the MontanaWild guys for the lack of permits.
Now back to my history with this thread. In the summer of 2012 I videoed two guys snagging fish at a kid's fishing derby. Even though it was during the time when it was legal for adults to fish, one of the guys used a weighted treble hook to snag two of the big spawned out brood fish that were stocked and the other guy helped him land them. Both fish were in the 4-5lb range and the video clearly showed the hook in the tail of one fish and in the pectoral fin of the other. They kept both of the fish. I got their plate numbers and turned the footage over to the warden. They were given several citation totaling $485 in fines each. Rather than pay the fines, they decided to take it to trial. I was asked to testify as witness for the state.
The first guy (who helped land the fish) requested a bench trial where he was found guilty. I think he was fined @ $1000 and lost his hunting and fishing privileges for three years. He appealed his conviction.
The second guy (the snagger) requested a jury trial and a new judge. After an 8 hour trial he was found guilty of all counts. His fines were @ $1200, two years suspended jail time, and three years lost hunting and fishing privileges. He appealed his conviction.
This dragged out for 1 1/2 years and I spent 8 days of my own time in court either in meetings, depositions or trial.
I had to set through a 3 1/2 hour deposition by one of their defense attorneys from Helena. He had googled my name and came up with this thread, specifically my snide comments to Belly deep about him checking Walmart parking lots to see if registrations were current. He said something to the effect that when I took pictures of their license plates to identify who they were, I was doing the same thing.
Final outcome was that guy who helped land the fish, had charges against him dropped when he agreed to testify against the snagger.
The snagger agreed to a plea bargain rather than going through another trial. He pled guilty (after trying to enter an Alford plea, which the judge rejected) and payed $1100 in fines with no loss of privileges.
I don't know what they spent in attorney fees but I'm guessing it was a lot more than the $485 they were originally charged with.
I would be interested to read a complete list of the individual charges and fines associated with each charge. Reading it all as a lump sum settlement leaves me with more questions than answers.
It's kind of ironic that this thread surfaces once again as I've got a pretty interesting history with this thread and parallel events that have played out in my life.
Having read through this entire thread again, I'll stick my neck out and give my take on the matter. On the subject of intentionally targeting bull trout in illegal waters and the charges resulting from that, I'll not lend any defense or sympathy if they were indeed guilty of that. I am not familiar with those waters and took it for granted that what they were doing concerning the fishing was completely above board. If (and it appears they did) they disregarded fishing regulations they should be liable for that.
On any charges resulting from filming without a permit or in the wilderness, I stand by all my earlier comments. I wonder how much of the fines they paid were related to not having permits?
When an agency tasked with permitting commercial activity makes the cost of being legal completely out of line with the potential for profit, they only encourage violations and ensure noncompliance by the majority of users. At $150 per day, the costs of permitting are way beyond the ability of anyone but major TV shows to bear. If you figure videoing for 40-50 days a year, even paying several thousand dollars in fines in cheap compared to having to get permits.
Meanwhile, anyone who wants to take still photos on USFS land and sell them for whatever a customer will pay, has no need to be permitted.
If the USFS and other agencies cared at all about facilitating legal filming and promotion of public lands recreation, they would create a yearly permit for several hundred dollars.
I have a hard time mustering much outrage against the MontanaWild guys for the lack of permits.
Now back to my history with this thread. In the summer of 2012 I videoed two guys snagging fish at a kid's fishing derby. Even though it was during the time when it was legal for adults to fish, one of the guys used a weighted treble hook to snag two of the big spawned out brood fish that were stocked and the other guy helped him land them. Both fish were in the 4-5lb range and the video clearly showed the hook in the tail of one fish and in the pectoral fin of the other. They kept both of the fish. I got their plate numbers and turned the footage over to the warden. They were given several citation totaling $485 in fines each. Rather than pay the fines, they decided to take it to trial. I was asked to testify as witness for the state.
The first guy (who helped land the fish) requested a bench trial where he was found guilty. I think he was fined @ $1000 and lost his hunting and fishing privileges for three years. He appealed his conviction.
The second guy (the snagger) requested a jury trial and a new judge. After an 8 hour trial he was found guilty of all counts. His fines were @ $1200, two years suspended jail time, and three years lost hunting and fishing privileges. He appealed his conviction.
This dragged out for 1 1/2 years and I spent 8 days of my own time in court either in meetings, depositions or trial.
I had to set through a 3 1/2 hour deposition by one of their defense attorneys from Helena. He had googled my name and came up with this thread, specifically my snide comments to Belly deep about him checking Walmart parking lots to see if registrations were current. He said something to the effect that when I took pictures of their license plates to identify who they were, I was doing the same thing.
Final outcome was that guy who helped land the fish, had charges against him dropped when he agreed to testify against the snagger.
The snagger agreed to a plea bargain rather than going through another trial. He pled guilty (after trying to enter an Alford plea, which the judge rejected) and payed $1100 in fines with no loss of privileges.
I don't know what they spent in attorney fees but I'm guessing it was a lot more than the $485 they were originally charged with.
Phil Tuccillo
New member
Unfortunate..... It is some amazing footage though...
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jryoung
Well-known member
Disappointing to hear for sure. Certainly some laws don't make sense or are difficult to deal with, but that doesn't mean they should be broken. Given the slew of hunting media hosts that have been found or plead guilty in the last year or so on poaching violations who's to say there have been other issues.
Hopefully this was a tough lesson learned and they can get back to producing great quality hunting and fishing without violating any game laws. The hunting and fishing world needs more high quality video.
Hopefully this was a tough lesson learned and they can get back to producing great quality hunting and fishing without violating any game laws. The hunting and fishing world needs more high quality video.
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MinnesotaHunter
Well-known member
Does anyone know if these guys have violated any filming law since? If FWP confiscated all their stuff they must have checked for other violations.
AH_14
Member
One of the weirdest rules in all of Montana fish and game management, "cannot target bull trout"--- also a rule that EVERYONE KNOWS! These guys knew the rule, just chose no to follow it,
Gerald Martin
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Except on the South Fork of the Flathead where it is legal and where these guys were fishing some of the time. The violations occurred when they also fished tributary streams where targeting bull trout is illegal.
AH_14
Member
Yes exactly!!! read the whole article on Montana Outdoor Radio Show website this morning!
Not OK in the "North Fork Blackfoot River and Spotted Bear River. Numerous videos showed intentionally fishing for bull trout in tributaries, such as Youngs Creek, White River, Big Salmon, and Little Salmon Creeks; these streams are closed to fishing for bull trout.
Really weird law I'd definitely agree---and I don't like the law at all.....
If it's true they played and messed with a large Bull Trout for 12 minutes to get a "glory underwater shot" that is absolutely so wrong-----
bad deal there Gerald
Not OK in the "North Fork Blackfoot River and Spotted Bear River. Numerous videos showed intentionally fishing for bull trout in tributaries, such as Youngs Creek, White River, Big Salmon, and Little Salmon Creeks; these streams are closed to fishing for bull trout.
Really weird law I'd definitely agree---and I don't like the law at all.....
If it's true they played and messed with a large Bull Trout for 12 minutes to get a "glory underwater shot" that is absolutely so wrong-----
bad deal there Gerald
Truth.
Gerald Martin
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My last post was only for clarification, not in support. As I said before, they should be held accountable for the fish and game law violations. I also agree with your sentiment on keeping a fish on the line for 12 minutes. Getting good footage with disregard for the welfare of the fish is certainly not ethical in my opinion.
Also truth.
mdunc8
Well-known member
In the event someone reads this and decides they want to go catch a bull trout on the South Fork, the season to legally to so is from the third Saturday in May until July 31.
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