Why can't I figure out my scope? Am I really that dense?

[gwhunter]

I zeroed at around 80 yards as thats the distance I have behind the shop with a gunrange already setup with a huge dirt backstop. Here is my 8 shot group on paper, from a bench, while trying different factory rounds and handloads.


After I got done tinkering with handloads, I wanted to see how they did at distance from a prone hunting position so I setup a target at 200 yards shooting prone off my pack to see how much practice I need to do before my elk hunt this year. (Surprise, I'm going to need to practice a ton) I was aiming for the center circle. Top right shot was a flyer I pulled.


I then setup my target at almost 300 yards (closer to 290 as thats the longest area I have without open sky behind me) and this is what I got.




Now here's the issue I cant figure out. I used the same point of aim for all 3 distances. I didn't adjust my turret or make any elevation adjustment. It actually hit HIGHER at 200 yards, and hit back at "Zero" at ~300 yards. Based on the specs on the factory ammo, I should have been 7 inches low with a 200 yard zero. The only thing that makes sense in my head is that I "zeroed" on the "rise" of the arc of the bullet path and not on the "fall" of the bullet path. (Does that even make sense?) I drew a diagram with my kids chalk to try to help myself figure it out.

Does this even make sense? I did the same exercise with factory ammo as i did with my handloads and it turned out the same both times. What is going on? How do I fix it? How am I this slow to figure this out?

Details of my setup:

Weatherby Vanguard 6.5prc 24" barrel
135gr Hammer Shock Hammer 3150fps
Also 130 Barnes Factory Ammo 2950fps
Leupold VX-5HD 3-15 x 44

I was trying to think about it like my archery setup and what would happen if I accidentally zeroed my 10 yard pin at 10 feet. Wouldnt it be higher at 20 if i used the same 10 yard pin because I was on the front edge of the arc? But now I'm confusing myself the more I think about it. Surely there is an obvious solution Im not thinking of. Right?

 

[ismith]

Well, 99% of your practice should be dry fire practice. As for the rest of your predicament, I don't think anyone will be able to figure that out without your rifle in their hands.............

 

[peterk1234]

There's a lot to unpack here and a bunch of people with way more experience than me will likely chime in.

First, your 80 yard shots look too me like you are shooting 2 moa. That is not acceptable. So, I would have stopped right there. I would recommend using the same ammo for your groupings to make sure your gun is setup correctly, and for the sake of consistency. If I'm reading what you wrote correctly, each load was different. Slight changes in your handloads can make huge differences, even at 80 yards. At 80 yards and that gun you should be able to find a round that will have your bullet holes almost touching.

Once you got things working at 80, you can move out to longer distances. Do you have a chrono for your handload tests?

 

[winmag]

The bullet is likely still rising at 80 yards, like you hypothesized.

What are the exact yardages and distances above point of aim? How high is the scope mounted over the bore?

 

[gwhunter]

There's a lot to unpack here and a bunch of people with way more experience than me will likely chime in.

First, your 80 yard shots look too me like you are shooting 2 moa. That is not acceptable. So, I would have stopped right there. I would recommend using the same ammo for your groupings to make sure your gun is setup correctly, and for the sake of consistency. If I'm reading what you wrote correctly, each load was different. Slight changes in your handloads can make huge differences, even at 80 yards. At 80 yards and that gun you should be able to find a round that will have your bullet holes almost touching.

Once you got things working at 80, you can move out to longer distances. Do you have a chrono for your handload tests?

For the 80 yard shots, I was more interested in testing my speeds and working up my loads with my chrono so I wasnt as steady as I should have been if I were shooting for accuracy. I included the picture as a demonstration of my zero, with is about dead on at 80.

So yes, I was using a chrono, and my real issue is I was higher at 200 than 80, and the same point of impact, elevation wise, at 300 as i was at 80.

 

[Pucky Freak]

You have a 300 yard zero. The place on the 80 yard target where the bullets impact is the “other zero”. It’s actually <80 yards, but because your shots are not tightly grouped, it is harder to see.

This is why you always sight in rifles at 100 yards, then confirm at 200.
My creedmoor is 0.8” at 100, 0 at 200. The “other zero” is around 65 yards.

With my bow, my arrow sits 4” lower than my peep. At 12 yards the arrow rises to 0”, 18 yards it’s +0.8”, and it’s back to 0” again at 25 yards (25 yard pin). Same principle.

 

[gwhunter]

The bullet is likely still rising at 80 yards, like you hypothesized.

How do I correct for this with my scope so Im zeroed at 100 on the downward arc of the bullet?

Exact yardages of the 3 pictures:
80yds
200yd
290yd

 

[gwhunter]

You have a 300 yard zero. The place on the 80 yard target where the bullets impact is the “other zero”. It’s actually <80 yards, but because your shots.....

Okay, so this is where my brain turned to mush....

How do I move my zero back to 100 yards? Before it got dark I went "if its zero at 300 but supposed to be 7inches low at 300, ill just drop the scope 7 inches so ill catch the downward part of the arc of the bullet path." Dropped it seven inches and went back to the 80yd target, it shot 7 inches low....

Then i got frustrated and it was getting dark so i packed it all in, left my stuff at the shop, and drove home to work on it next weekend.

 

[gwhunter]

With my bow, my arrow sits 4” lower than my peep. At 12 yards the arrow rises to 0”, 18 yards it’s +0.8”, and it’s back to 0” again at 25 yards (25 yard pin). Same prprinciple.

Not saying you would do this, but for the sake of argument, and to help my brain figure this out, say you wanted a 15 yard pin on that bow. You would put one on top of your 25 yard pin. Wouldnt this mess up your point of aim vs your arrow flight after you stepped forward 10 yards from your 25 yd distance? Am I messing something up in how im thinking about this?

 

[gwhunter]

It’s actually <80 yards, but because your shots are not tightly grouped, it is harder to see.

Or is this the issue???? I should actually shoot at a true 100 and zero for 100/200 based on that distance?

 

[Pucky Freak]

Okay, so this is where my brain turned to mush....

How do I move my zero back to 100 yards? Before it got dark I went "if its zero at 300 but supposed to be 7inches low at 300, ill just drop the scope 7 inches so ill catch the downward part of the arc of the bullet path." Dropped it seven inches and went back to the 80yd target, it shot 7 inches low....

Then i got frustrated and it was getting dark so i packed it all in, left my stuff at the shop, and drove home to work on it next weekend.

Always sight in rifles at 100. Sight in at 100 does not mean zero at 100. You should be sighting in at 100 for a height above zero that will produce a 200 yard zero…always.

The 100 yard impact elevation is calculated based on load data (chrono too, if you are hand-loading). Mine is +0.8”. Yours might be 0.7” or 0.9” or whatever. Once you get a tight group exactly at that height, shoot at 200 and you should be at exactly zero. If you are not, go back to 100 yards and adjust up or down slightly, then back out to 200 to confirm.

To lower your 200 yard impact by 7”, you adjust your elevation down 3.5, because the turret adjustments are based on a 100 yard sight in.

So yeah, when you dropped it 7” you’re WAY low.

 

[Pucky Freak]

Or is this the issue???? I should actually shoot at a true 100 and zero for 100/200 based on that distance?

Your 80 yard shot group is a 1.5” circle. That’s huge for a high-power rifle. Factory ammo on a 6.5prc should be about twice as tight. With such a wide group you’re going to have a really frustrating time sighting in, and shooting in general.

Instead of monkeying around with multiple different loads on a single target, bring 20 rounds of the same load and get your rifle properly sighted in. THEN, experiment w/ different loads…use a separate target for each load to keep it clean, and write what load it is on the target so you don’t get them mixed up.

 

[Pucky Freak]

Not saying you would do this, but for the sake of argument, and to help my brain figure this out, say you wanted a 15 yard pin on that bow. You would put one on top of your 25 yard pin. Wouldnt this mess up your point of aim vs your arrow flight after you stepped forward 10 yards from your 25 yd distance? Am I messing something up in how im thinking about this?

For my bow, the “12 yard pin” and the 25 yard pin are the same pin. I know that all shots between 12-25 yards will impact slightly high when using that pin. All shots under 12 yards AND all shot beyond 25 yards will impact low when using the 25 yard pin.

The “5 yard pin” is waaay below the 25 yard pin. That’s why you aim 4” high on a deer directly under your stand.

When shooting very short distances with either a scoped rifle or a bow, forget the pins/reticle and instead think about the height of the sight above the projectile. When putting down an elk at point blank I’m aiming 2” over the reticle.

 

[gwhunter]

@Pucky Freak , thank you for all the replies. I think I was just juggling too many things at once, overcomplicating it, not taking my time to get accurate shots, and those 80 yard shots are throwing me through a loop. Ill take 20 of the same load and shoot at 100, 150, 200, 250, 300 and then figure out what is going on. Likely nothing is wrong and im confusing myself by starting at 80yrds, only because our old 100yd range had a building put up at the 100yd mark so now we still use it, but at 80.

 

[ropeup79]

With that flat shooting of a cartridge getting 100 yard zero on the downward curve will be tricky.

 

[kiwi hunter]

Forget whatever you've achieved up to this point, ok.
Start again, go to a reputable site on ballistics like Berger, input all info like speed, line of sight, BC, weight of projectile etc and say you want to be dead on at fifty, that's half of one hundred. So your line of sight is 1 1/2 inches above bore, the calculator will give you a spread sheet which will show you where the projectile supposedly will hit the target at 100 when you have it sighted at fifty.
So now you can move your point of aim wherever you want.
So if it's hitting your bull at fifty and it's 1 inch high at one hundred it will be crossing your line at say 175 or whatever and if you have max range at 500 then you can see where the path will be out to five hundred. You can now sight your rifle to the range you wish(1 1/2)at a hundred because you now know where it will hit at 200.
Play with the fingers until it all makes sense.
You owe me a jug.

 

[Nicoli7153]

Have you cleaned the rifle lately? Conventional wisdom is shoot it until it looses accuracy, then clean it and see if the accuracy comes back. If not then it probably is a scope issue. Process of elimination

 

[nrpate05]

Likely if you shot at 100 yards you'd be hitting high, perhaps a couple of inches. This is why you are higher still at 200 and maybe zeroed at 300. Your actual 80 yd zero is hard to determine with that group. Did any one brand of ammo shoot consistently. When you lowered your group 7 'inches', it seems that you actually dropped it 7 MOA, which would equate to about 21 inches at 300 yards. I'd start the process over and focus on one brand of ammo at a time. Cleaning the rifle couldn't hurt either.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

No way you’re zeroed at 80 and 300.. would be more like 25 and 300. It’s possible your real zero at 100 is close to 2 MOA high. I’d try to get a tighter group and more solid zero, even if at 80 yds. Your elevation at 80 vs 100 will be nearly indiscernible from each other unless your groups are ragged holes.

 

[antelopedundee]

With a decent aim point I would think that any of those shots should have killed an elk with a hit to the boiler room. A good benchrest shooter could probably tell you why you have vertical stringing in your first group.