Who’s returning a tag?

[WildWill]

As one of those "visiting" people who can buy my deer license OTC. I will say what is said to us "visitors" in a lot of these discussions... "You can move here to get your resident license perks"

Heck you don't even have to move here (WI) $79.95 will get you a NR OTC rifle tag with 1 buck license and 3 doe tags another $79.95 will get you an archery license that has 1 buck and 3 doe.

But you do have to move there to draw a Wisconsin elk tag.


I agree with the sentiment that Colorado's tag return policy needs changing (I personally like the WY system). But until then I fully intend to take advantage of the system setup by cpw. I'm returning my deer tag and because it was drawn 2nd choice the only consequence is losing the app fee so nothing basically. I'm not one for complaining much if they wanna fix it great if not I'll continue to make the system work to my advantage.

 

[WIbiggame]

But you do have to move there to draw a Wisconsin elk tag.


I agree with the sentiment that Colorado's tag return policy needs changing (I personally like the WY system). But until then I fully intend to take advantage of the system setup by cpw. I'm returning my deer tag and because it was drawn 2nd choice the only consequence is losing the app fee so nothing basically. I'm not one for complaining much if they wanna fix it great if not I'll continue to make the system work to my advantage.

True about the elk tag but at 0.02% odds probably not worth moving here

I am not hating the player just hating the game is all. If we want to chew through years of points the only is making people use points at every spot available. And by having people actually hint tags they buy not just shotgun the west apps. Ship has sailed so I know I'm living in a fairytale world with my idea.

Only thing I could see changing and would be 100% behind. No point only option you pay full price for a tag if you draw all points gone if not than you get a point.

You want a full refund fine take it but you can't keep or get any points back period.

 

[WIbiggame]

You're actually tempting me!

Let me know if you decide to venture east might be able to help you out.

 

[ImBillT]

In your exact situation it would be a wash. However, you need to set a blanket rule no returned tags period.

Your example it's had 2nd choice apps drawing it and leftovers. So you could've applied for it as a leftover if you didn't get your moose tag. If still left overs a week before season it becomes a 1st come 1st serve OTC tag.

We need to "punish" people for buying tags as "backups" if they don't draw a tag. Ie Idaho is the prime example. And to do that all tags would need to be under the same rule. To hand pick which tags are affected and not would way to hard on systems that can't even do a standard draw right.

I’m a proponent of fighting unjust point systems that lock out young people, new hunters, late entrants etc. There are a number of methods I believe would help. Eliminating point only applications is one of the methods I’m in favor of. If you apply, you’re at risk of drawing a tag, and thus loosing your points whether you hunt or not. BUT that’s not necessarily a blanket statement regardless of tag marketability. I often see suggestions to punish opportunity regardless of demand, but I actually think ignoring demand would make point creep worse. There are hunts in NM that I have hunted, and continue to make my third choice on applications, that I would never trade for a point if NM went to a point scheme. The tag I returned, I have hunted twice, and would be happy to hunt again. I’ve drawn it with zero points all three times. By offering a refund, I let someone else go hunting when I drew a very unlikely tag to draw. Honestly though, I apply for things for which results are later than CO results, and I wouldn’t apply for that CO tag if a refund wasn’t an option. It’s an OTC unit that gets fewer hunters during OTC seasons than during the first rifle draw season. Sure you can call it a backup. How does that change the fact that they have more tags than they do hunters who want to hunt there? If CO didn’t offer a refund, I would just hunt OTC. What would be the result? Well, no one would get an extra draw tag. They already have extras. CO would loose about $100 in application/license fees though.

What’s my point? My point is simply that you must consider demand or tag quality when addressing point creep. There are tags that people are happy to hunt as long as they aren’t giving up too much, but which no one would hunt if it came at a higher cost. So, when considering point creep solutions, you need to offer some exceptions for tags for which there is no point creep. You do need hunters to go kill those animals, and you do need hunters to fund those game agencies.

As a slight aside, point creep has nothing to do with refunds or returns. Point creep is entirely a result of points. In a random system who cares if you can return a tag? You may never draw it again. Go random, offer returns up to 30-60 days before the season starts, offer a partial refund to justify the state’s cost of reselling the tag, and demand the original tag fee(if it was an NR tag and a resident buys it, they pay the NR fee) and who gives a royal rats behind that it got returned? If you don’t offer a refund, then people who can’t hunt, won’t return it to someone who can.

CO actually has a decent system for return. You either get your money, or your original points, but you don’t get your additional point. If you draw, and then return to original point level, you will almost certainly miss out on drawing next year unless it was a zero or one point tag. If it was a high point tag, you will likely wait a very long time before you draw again as a consequence of not gaining this year’s point. CO’s return system does not substantially contribute to point creep. Their point system does, but their return system does not. If it’s a decent tag at all, the person who returns it gives up at least on point. Where’s the problem?

 

[WIbiggame]

@ImBillT I like alot of what you are saying most of it for that matter. My only "concern" would be these states can't even manage a simple draw how are they going to determine what is "in demand tag?" Applicants the year before applicants that year? All it takes is some influencer or website to mention the unit you hunt at 0pts and that would become a 2pt unit over night.

I think CO system flawed. You have convinced me a refund is ok to an extent should be 50% refunded. But no matter what keeping your points should never be an option. You applied you as you even said took the risk of drawing a tag.

Again just my dream world I know the $ is to good to the states to ever do that but worth dreaming

 

[Buffs35]

Damn. I thought the property tax thread was the place for everyone to whine.

 

[ImBillT]

@ImBillT I like alot of what you are saying most of it for that matter. My only "concern" would be these states can't even manage a simple draw how are they going to determine what is "in demand tag?" Applicants the year before applicants that year? All it takes is some influencer or website to mention the unit you hunt at 0pts and that would become a 2pt unit over night.

I think CO system flawed. You have convinced me a refund is ok to an extent should be 50% refunded. But no matter what keeping your points should never be an option. You applied you as you even said took the risk of drawing a tag.

Again just my dream world I know the $ is to good to the states to ever do that but worth dreaming

The market determines what is in demand. CO imposes the cost of all of your points for a refund, or the point you would have received without a refund. For a low demand tag you might still draw next year, or 1-2 years later. For a very high demand tag it’s not uncommon that one point below max has 3-10 years worth of applicants, and thus, if you return you tag, even with no refund, you go from having a tag in hand to potentially being ten years from drawing a tag. There’s no complicated bureaucracy necessary to handle the demand issue, or the appropriate punishment for returning a high demand tag.

In a random system, the demand issue is handled even better. If you return a tag, you have absolutely no idea when you’ll draw it again, and everyone goes to the back of the line whether they draw or not. Why not offer a partial refund so that someone who has a conflict can allow someone else to hunt? No one maintained any place in line without points.

AZ is easily the worst system when it comes to returns. They sell point creep. I know a person who buys both his children and his non-hunting wife points in AZ and expressed to me that he intends to use one child’s points to raise his group app enough to draw a tag, then point guard his child so that he can hunt a better tag than he has points for, then do it again with his other child. After that he plans to do it with his wife’s points. The next year he’ll do it again with his wife’s points and gift the tag to his minor child. After that he’ll use his now adult child’s unused points and take his child hunting with him. After that he’ll take child number two with him, then his wife will have more than zero points which might help him draw a tag, and if he draws another tag while child number two is still a minor, he’ll gift the tag to his child so that his child can keep his points so that he can be beneficial on at least one more group application. Yeah PointGuard is great. Due to increased demand in AZ, it’s not unlikely that his children will not be eligible to receive tags as a gift by the time his wife has enough points to be useful, but even then she’ll be useful in producing two tags instead of three to four.

I wonder what the kids will think. “Thanks dad for using my points to bring up our group average so you can hunt more instead of letting me draw a good tag”.

 

[dan.kirkpatrick]

with just getting rotator cuff surgery july 3 rd,,its looking like i may need to turn back in a non res nevada antelope tag that I drew,,( i know its something you never ever ever return a nevada non res tag) but i just don't see how i can be recovered by September time to make it happen ,i believe they can reinstate my points,but i just loose out on $301 tag cost,, waiting though till my next dr appointment to discuss my progress

 

[WIbiggame]

with just getting rotator cuff surgery july 3 rd,,its looking like i may need to turn back in a non res nevada antelope tag that I drew,,( i know its something you never ever ever return a nevada non res tag) but i just don't see how i can be recovered by September time to make it happen ,i believe they can reinstate my points,but i just loose out on $301 tag cost,, waiting though till my next dr appointment to discuss my progress

If it's an archery tag mouth tab? Would be worth a shot with a tag like that. Best of luck at the appointment hope you get some great news!

 

[mevertsen]

with just getting rotator cuff surgery july 3 rd,,its looking like i may need to turn back in a non res nevada antelope tag that I drew,,( i know its something you never ever ever return a nevada non res tag) but i just don't see how i can be recovered by September time to make it happen ,i believe they can reinstate my points,but i just loose out on $301 tag cost,, waiting though till my next dr appointment to discuss my progress

With medical you get your points and refund.

 

[Elkaholic07]

Idaho has the best system. Completely random. And pick one of big 3 or deer, elk and antelope

 

[dan.kirkpatrick]

its a 43-46 rifle tag,a pretty dang good tag from my understanding,,nearly100 pct sucess harvest rate,with the moisture nevada got over this last winter and spring so far, this should be a near ideal year,,i just don't think ill be rehabbed far enough along by the late August/early September time frame , it'll be too soon, but ill see what the doctor says this Tuesday

 

[millerkiller77]

As one of those "visiting" people who can buy my deer license OTC. I will say what is said to us "visitors" in a lot of these discussions... "You can move here to get your resident license perks"

Heck you don't even have to move here (WI) $79.95 will get you a NR OTC rifle tag with 1 buck license and 3 doe tags another $79.95 will get you an archery license that has 1 buck and 3 doe.

Headed there this year as a matter of fact.

 

[mevertsen]

its a 43-46 rifle tag,a pretty dang good tag from my understanding,,nearly100 pct sucess harvest rate,with the moisture nevada got over this last winter and spring so far, this should be a near ideal year,,i just don't think ill be rehabbed far enough along by the late August/early September time frame , it'll be too soon, but ill see what the doctor says this Tuesday

Download the return form.

It looks like deferral might be an option as well.

The form is on the NDOWLICENSING.COM website. At least you know your options before your appointment.

 

[WIbiggame]

Headed there this year as a matter of fact.

Good luck!! Hope you enjoy your time here!

 

[prhunter]

I turned in my 2nd choice any whitetail tag. Had every intention of hunting it but didn't expect to break a 7 year cold streak in NM. Of course the NM deer tag I drew opens the same day as the CO deer tag. Pretty easy decision on which one to focus on. The CO tag actually runs a bit longer and I could've probably hunted at least the last 3-4 days but decided I already had enough on my plate and it would be better going to someone else.

Did you lose any points or have to pay a fee by returning your second-choice tag??

 

[WildWill]

Did you lose any points or have to pay a fee by returning your second-choice tag??

No points used on second choice tags and the majority of money returned except a small application fee.