Where does all the rifle BS come from?

[sharpshooter97]

All my dad has ever used for deer is a .30-30, it’s worked for millions of hunters over the last hundred years. Personally I shoot a .243 and as long as the bullet is placed right it does the job, my brother killed some nice deer with a .243 also. This year he bought a 6.5 creedmor because he wanted a rifle he could also use on elk if he draws a tag. I think instead of worrying about caliber shoot the rifle that you are confident with.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

All of these are great responses to other threads... but not exactly the alternative to google scholar, which is what I was looking for...

oh well...once more into the morass I guess...

@belshawelk what about the secret service and various NATO countries using the 5.7x28mm... COME AT ME BRO...

Rifles (in one form or another) have been around for over 600 years - that's plenty of time for the bullshit merchants to work their magic. Discussions on "what it takes to kill" an animal probably started in some cave over a fire 35,000 years ago.

You're one of those clovis guys aren't you... dude it's all about folsom, I'm sorry it's just not mass it's velocity.

 

[RockinU]

LOL I love these threads. All the perfect hunters in the world who have never made a bad shot or seen someone else do it. Or a really well hit elk run off never to be found?

Speed does not kill. If it did then lets kill elk with a well placed shot from a .222 hornet or a 22.250. Why do we need a caliber bigger than a .338 to hunt in Africa?? Anyone.......... why have a .416, 500? Because you need a big bullet with lots of energy not speed. Anyone know why the FBI many years ago wanted something with more ENERGY than a 9mm? Because a fast moving bullet even hit very well does not put the body into shock. Only Energy does. That's why we have the 10MM today.

You want to get hit with my car or a semi?

Speed is a factor. Kinetic energy is 1/2 mass X velocity squared, which means velocity plays a big part, but if the mass is too small, it becomes a limiting factor as well.

And to answer your question, I'd rather be hit by a semi rolling at 1/4 mph than your car at 40 mph...

 

[cahunter805]

Speed is a factor. Kinetic energy is 1/2 mass X velocity squared, which means velocity plays a big part, but if the mass is too small, it becomes a limiting factor as well.

And to answer your question, I'd rather be hit by a semi rolling at 1/4 mph than your car at 40 mph...

Velocity does play a part in Kinetic energy but more important in my opinion is how that energy is transferred and the tissue damage it causes. Bullets kill by causing traumatic tissue damage. Choosing the proper bullet for your specific cartridge is also important.
The 1000/1500ft lbs isn’t a bad guideline but the velocity/ bullet choice/ yardage this all occurs at must be taken into account somewhat also.
I personally have used many types of bullets and use Berger bullets whenever I can. Hammer bullets are also a good choice in the monolithic bullets.

 

[bushman13]

Same results I found hunting 30 years in Georgia.

If you want to anchor a big whitetail buck, and don't mind meat damage, high shoulder.
If you don't mind blood trailing a bit, heart or lung shot.
If he is within 25 yards, neck shot.

Because whitetails aren't as big as elk or muley's, Corelokts seem to be the ticket. Although we have now seen the x-rays from Corelokts

SCDNR did a study a while back.

SCDNR - Wildlife Information

I’ve shot a lot of deer on nuisance permits here in S.C. The rules have changed over time. When I started the local game warden would look at damage then bring 5 tags. You filled those and he brought 5 more. This continued until crops had matured enough to survive browsing or the deer had been sufficiently thinned or deer season started. We had specific hours to shoot and weren’t supposed to shoot bucks if it was obvious. You also weren’t supposed to touch the deer. Now you can collect deer and take to a processor.

 

[RockinU]

It's an interesting academic discussion, where it'll be hard to find a definitive answer. A well placed double lung .22 mag will kill and elk eventually, while a well placed PGU-28B will kill an elk instantly. If there is an ideal level of some measure of power, it's likely to be a moving target based on a ridiculous number of variables. So probably the best answer is a level of energy sufficient to render a reasonably quick death in most situations, yet doesn't do enough damage to reduce the usability of the resource.

 

[RockinU]

Velocity does play a part in Kinetic energy but more important in my opinion is how that energy is transferred and the tissue damage it causes. Bullets kill by causing traumatic tissue damage. Choosing the proper bullet for your specific cartridge is also important.
The 1000/1500ft lbs isn’t a bad guideline but the velocity/ bullet choice/ yardage this all occurs at must be taken into account somewhat also.
I personally have used many types of bullets and use Berger bullets whenever I can. Hammer bullets are also a good choice in the monolithic bullets.

For sure. The construction of the bullet determines how much of the energy is transferred to the target, and how. A FMJ may pass through an animal carrying energy with it that it did not impart to the target. When you figure the KE of a projectile at the target, that is just a potential KE, the bullet, it's design and construction are crucial to how much of that potential is actually delivered.

 

[RockinU]

Same results I found hunting 30 years in Georgia.

If you want to anchor a big whitetail buck, and don't mind meat damage, high shoulder.
If you don't mind blood trailing a bit, heart or lung shot.
If he is within 25 yards, neck shot.

Because whitetails aren't as big as elk or muley's, Corelokts seem to be the ticket. Although we have now seen the x-rays from Corelokts

Yeah, those x-rays give me pause too...

 

[belshawelk]

Speed is a factor. Kinetic energy is 1/2 mass X velocity squared, which means velocity plays a big part, but if the mass is too small, it becomes a limiting factor as well.

And to answer your question, I'd rather be hit by a semi rolling at 1/4 mph than your car at 40 mph...

The question wasnt a semi at 1/4 Mph vs car at 40. Both at 40 MPH. If you want the semi go for it.

 

[belshawelk]

The 10mm is completely obsolete now, as the whole energy myth for the 10mm was debunked through ballistic studies. Interestingly enough, there is no distinguishing difference in terminal performance between a 9mm, .40, 10mm and .45. You must reach velocities of 2000 fps+ before any change in velocity makes a difference in terminal performance.

Bullets don’t put people or animals onto shock. Drastic changes in blood pressure/volume cause shock.

10MM obsolete? Thats why there are so many new handguns coming out in it. Seems like every gun magazine you pick up has a new one. Sure are alot of peeps buying them for obsolete. the 10MM is considered a hunting cartridge. Cant say that for the 9mm and 45. 10mm is on par with the .41 Mag.................

 

[TheJason]

10MM obsolete? Thats why there are so many new handguns coming out in it. Seems like every gun magazine you pick up has a new one. Sure are alot of peeps buying them for obsolete. the 10MM is considered a hunting cartridge. Cant say that for the 9mm and 45. 10mm is on par with the .41 Mag.................

How many 10mm handguns is the FBI buying now? The answer is just about none. The reality is all those folks buying 10mm Glocks could likely achieve the same things with a 9mm. I could name off a lot of agencies who are transitioning back to 9mm from all of the .40 and bigger handgun chamberings.

Plenty of research out there on handgun ammo and velocity. If you don’t believe me, talk to the guys at CCI/Speer. For handgun rounds, additional velocity doesn’t really mean a darned thing for “killing power” or whatever other moniker folks want to use, UNLESS you get above 2000 FPS. At this point, the additional velocity overcomes tissue elasticity and makes a bigger wound channel.

 

[Brandon270]

10MM obsolete? Thats why there are so many new handguns coming out in it. Seems like every gun magazine you pick up has a new one. Sure are alot of peeps buying them for obsolete. the 10MM is considered a hunting cartridge. Cant say that for the 9mm and 45. 10mm is on par with the .41 Mag.................

Ryan Cleckner said on his podcast a while back that FBI/gov folk were going back to 9mm over the 10mm for the lower recoil and faster follow up shots. Sounded like they preferred a more controllable cartridge over a more powerful one.

 

[belshawelk]

Ryan Cleckner said on his podcast a while back that FBI/gov folk were going back to 9mm over the 10mm for the lower recoil and faster follow up shots. Sounded like they preferred a more controllable cartridge over a more powerful one.

Correct. Thats where the .40 came from. Less power because the 10mm was hard for the female officers to shoot well

 

[belshawelk]

How many 10mm handguns is the FBI buying now? The answer is just about none. The reality is all those folks buying 10mm Glocks could likely achieve the same things with a 9mm. I could name off a lot of agencies who are transitioning back to 9mm from all of the .40 and bigger handgun chamberings.

Plenty of research out there on handgun ammo and velocity. If you don’t believe me, talk to the guys at CCI/Speer. For handgun rounds, additional velocity doesn’t really mean a darned thing for “killing power” or whatever other moniker folks want to use, UNLESS you get above 2000 FPS. At this point, the additional velocity overcomes tissue elasticity and makes a bigger wound channel.

You are correct. The FBI found it too hard to control for female officers. Thats where the .40 came from.

We just have a difference of opinion. We have different experience I guess. You carry and shoot what makes you comfortable and shoot well. Shoot them brown bears in the vitals if you like. I am gonna break him down and break both shoulders.

 

[TheJason]

You are correct. The FBI found it too hard to control for female officers. Thats where the .40 came from.

We just have a difference of opinion. We have different experience I guess. You carry and shoot what makes you comfortable and shoot well. Shoot them brown bears in the vitals if you like. I am gonna break him down and break both shoulders.

It’s not a difference of opinion. It’s a factual study commissioned by the FBI. The .40 was the offshoot lovechild that provided no terminal benefit over the 9mm with current ammo technology.

I am to the point where I have no idea where the hell you’re going with this. We went from elk hunting your property to the FBI to brown bears.

Peace out.

 

[Jeffminokla]

Didn't notice it mentioned in this thread but Nathan Foster of ballistic studies has some pretty interesting findings....FWIW.

 

[RockinU]

The question wasnt a semi at 1/4 Mph vs car at 40. Both at 40 MPH. If you want the semi go for it.

The question as you framed it didn't account for speed, of course speed being equal more mass wins out, but there are trade offs in achieving equal speeds. But that just furthers my point that speed does in fact matter, it does in fact kill. Otherwise you wouldn't need the semi to go 40...

 

[mtmuley]

The BS comes from too much keyboard jockey BS and not enough real world experience with rifles and bullets. mtmuley

 

[RockinU]

The BS comes from too much keyboard jockey BS and not enough real world experience with rifles and bullets. mtmuley

I guess that could be it, although it seems that a lot of the anecdotal stuff from years and years ago came from guys who didn't have keyboards, and probably more real world experience that most have now.

My personal interest in KE and why some shots kill better than others stems from a whole lot of experience using dogs to track wounded game...in the real world, and I like math.

 

[mtmuley]

Math don't kill stufff. mtmuley