Where do you draw the line ?

[Tom]

I think there's a bunch of artificial logic here. Some people here think this makes sense. Say, its a private ranch with no hunting pressure, no personally owned animals. We spot a nice lush valley full of big bull elk. We fly somebody in, rich or poor, it don't matter. They shoot a big one. They got a "fair chase" free ranging, B&C trophy.

But, a guy carries a bow for days, hunting a private elk with a tag in its ear on thousands of acres with lots of cover and takes weeks to connect and its not even hunting.

That false logic is wrong if its says the first is more of a hunt than the second. The second hunt example is more of a hunt, as long as its in a state where its done legally. There's no doubt about it.

I like the bear in the backyard example. That was thrill, I see it. Just like the owned animal hunt in a high fence area set up for the animals to have a good life can be a thrill. Anybody see one and not the other?

Making the argument that an animal has to have free choice of where to live is some kind of animal rights view. We force animals to live in the wilderness, not the cities, right?

 

[Washington Hunter]

Tom, what you say seems reasonable but the problem is I just don't agree with the private ownership of elk (or any native big game animal.) If these guys with all this land want elk on their property, why not create the habitat necessary so wild elk will WANT to be there? Then they would be helping wild elk populations rather than hindering. I would love to have a couple of square miles of land in a state with an abudance of elk, I could then log it, burn it, plant crops, plant trees, whatever was needed to make it attractive for elk to live there. Where is the satisfaction in putting up an 8 foot fence and trucking in a bunch of elk like cattle? I just don't get it, and I guess I never will.

 

[Erik in AK]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom:
Making the argument that an animal has to have free choice of where to live is some kind of animal rights view. We force animals to live in the wilderness, not the cities, right?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tom, I know you're a Texan and all...but seriously, are you serious? We force animals to live in the wilderness? You can't really mean that...can you?

 

[muskrat89]

Ownership? I bet if you've been scouting/watching an elk all season.. have him patterned, etc., then you tell me about it.. and I go shoot him on my day off.. I bet you'd be pissed, cause I shot "your" elk

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-20-2004 20:14: Message edited by: muskrat89 ]</font>

 

[Washington Hunter]

muskrat, What does that have to do with private ownership of elk? Nobody "owns" a wild elk, until they kill it legally. Privately owned elk (livestock) can be bought, sold, and traded. What is your point?

 

[JoseCuervo]

I like the bullChit statement that it must be ok to have these High Fence hunts, "because it is legal". The "I'm gonna do it because it is legal" crowd are so totally absent of morals, ethics, and the ability to differ between right and wrong, that Society has had to pass laws to define the minimally acceptable standards of behaviors. These High Fence supporters would be Pedophiles if there wasn't a law against it, as the only thing that stops their actions, by their own admission, is the Law.

I think we all know of "easy" critters and "hard" critters, and my guess is the "trophy" part of Elkhunters BBQ bear was the fact he shot it off the back deck without burning his chicken breast. I bet he never tells the story of killing the bear, without letting people know the funny part of the story. Occasionally, an easy animal gets killed, but I can personally tell you, the little forked horn I helped a 12 year old kill after a 4 hour hike is more of a trophy than a 4x4 killed by using the hood of the pick-up for a rest.

 

[Tom]

Erik in AK, You asked me a question, so I'll answer it. The cities are not a good habitat for elk, we made them that way, so the elk leave. The wilderness is made to be a reasonable habitat for elk, so they move there. That's the way I meant it.

The pedofile comments appear ignorant to me. Try and read this, its history. High fences started down here as tools for good wildlife management. People on one piece of property would shoot any buck they saw. People on the neighboring piece of property wanted to let the smaller young bucks walk and shoot them when they were older and bigger, hence, they put up a fence. The fences down here are to create great habitat and manage the animals better. The hunting ones are not to ship in a bunch of elk like cattle, although there are some like that. That's all Montana allows now for elk.

 

[elkfarmer]

A-con, i don't get the whole feeling that just because of high fence operations someday all elk will be behind a fence. i am not being ignorant but i have heard it a few times and need help understading it.

Eric in AK, actually i just raise them for now. hell, i haven't even put one in my own freezer yet. as far as the 120 acers you mentioned, i am having a moral decision right now about that. There is that much land available to me to use but it is not big enough in my opinion, plus it is land that I hunt on. but I might do it and a few years down the road sink my money into property south of me which is hill country. to me it would make it seem more realistic and that is my goal.

but i will let you know who the client base is when it happens. do you think i should print fliers up in spanish and italian? or how about greek and ebonics? please let me know so my hunting ranch will succeed. becuase by what you said i can tell you are one samrt suohtren boy.....

 

[Erik in AK]

Elkfarmer,
before this exchange deteriorates any further (and yes I started it) I'm from Sauquoit, NY--10 miles south of Utica on Route 8. I was raised there and in Monroe NY--55 miles north of NYC on Route 17.

I remember well my grandfather, father and uncles being told every deer season to "F#ck Off...Hick! by fellow New Yorkers when said fellows were informed they were trespassing on our land. So, I got nothing for urban arrogance...

BTW, my family gave permission to everyone who came to the house and asked for it, but I digress...

If you're raising elk for the meat and asian antler trade good luck to you. If you want to run a hunt on your land I recommend rallying your neighboring land owners into practicing QDM then selling access to your better than average bucks via daily trespass fees. If you eventually run "hunts" for elk you will attract the kinds of urbanites I slighted in my earlier post.

I remain steadfastly against fenced hunts for native species widely available on public land, especially elk.

cheers,
Erik (the happily displaced New Yorker) in AK

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-21-2004 13:01: Message edited by: Erik in AK ]</font>

 

[Tom]

Red deer are European elk, that would be an alternative to the bigger Rocky mountain elk in a smaller area, so would Sika deer, the Asian elk, they are smaller yet.

Axis would be awesome, but they might not do well that far north? They eat 60% grass and are deer size for a smaller area requirement.

There's plenty of options if you decided against the big elk, at least here, there is, I think in NY also?

 

[Moosie]

posted 01-17-2004 08:15
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I assure you, my hunt of not killing something was far more memorable than any High Fence operation for Elk could be. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

posted 01-17-2004 14:48
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It is about telling stories about dumb ass mistakes that cost a bull. That is where the gratification comes from. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

posted 01-20-2004 21:55
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> the little forked horn I helped a 12 year old kill after a 4 hour hike is more of a trophy than a 4x4 killed by using the hood of the pick-up for a rest. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What you left out Gunner is :

"IN MY OPINION"

Because that is Exactly what those statements are. Not facts, it is an "Opinion".

"memorable", "gratification", & "a trophy" are things that people judge for themselves. Just like Ethics. It's not set in Stone.

That would be like Me saying when We hike you "feel" more tiered then me. Although it looks like that ALWAYS

, It might not be so.

 

[Gunner46]

I've hunted the Hawaiian Islands, on Dole Plantation land, where access to a few 10,000 acres is reserved, for the day, to your party. No fences, Wild deer, very, very light pressure. Saw hundreds of deer, various pockets and ranges, from my stand, at one time. I took a very rare 4X4 Axis deer. Another hunt, same island, but open to a general draw public hunt, restricted to only the weekend, and it was D**n near impossible to even see a descent Buck, but I also got a small one on that hunt.

Which one was I 'Hunting' on ?

Opening day in just about any state is almost a war zone. Limited access, private land, without enclosed fencing isn't.

I just choose to participate in the calmer hunting astmospheres and fill my freezer alittle more often. These are still wild animals, just not in a state of panic.

I guess the same 'Hunting' argument could be waged between, early season bow hunters, early season muzzleloaders, and general rifle hunters.

Blasting a "Farm" raised, restricetd area, Elk, Deer, Boar, etc is just shooting, but taking game under non-preasured situations is just being smart.

 

[Seldom Ever]

Gunner46,basically, I agree with you,at least partially anyway.However,there is a large gray area in all this.I spent a lot of time this year hunting whitetails on private land,that is fenced.One particular piece of property borders a state park,with public hunting access.Of course you must know the whitetail can jump the farm fences here.

I hunted really hard all year,and only saw 2 deer and a flag.I killed the 2 deer I saw,and both were at dusk in the wooded edge of a pasture,feeding on grass.I hunted the woods from dawn to dusk many a day,but the deer stayed bedded down and just weren't moving as they normally do,not even during the rut. There has been no mast in the woods here for 2 years running.Several counties lost 90% of there deer herd to a big snowstorm in March.These factors caused the poor hunting,as the deer wouldn't waste there energy browsing for food that isn't there,and the deer population was way down as well.Normally I see 50-75 whitetails a season, while hunting "in the woods".


I know I hunted hard,for an old guy with a bad ticker,and anybody who says otherwise is entitled to there opinion,ridiculous as it may be

.Anyhow,my point is, both these deer could be considered "farm" deer,by some peoples definition,including yours above,and yet they are also free ranging,because they jump the cattle fences all the time!There is a vast gray area in all of this,and I think that hunters should live and let live,band together and fight the anti hunters,before we go nit picking amongst ourselves.

 

[SJ]

Who needs Antis when we have each other!!!!!!

 

[Gunner46]

SF,

No NO NO!!

I meant, that if they were 'fenced' there was no way for them to get in, or out, and confined into a relativley small area. My mistake for not making myself clearer.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-21-2004 14:44: Message edited by: Gunner46 ]</font>

 

[Seldom Ever]

I understand G46 [Bingo!!

] I wasn't offended,I was just talking and "jining" in the general confab

.I thought the Dole farm would be considered a "farm" hunt with or without fences,myself.But my point is,it doesn't make the deer any less tame, even though many may profess that it does.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Seldom,

Look at the crap that Slydog was advocating...
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> If it was my son or daughter and that was their dream and they were limmited by physical ability I would want the deer tied to a tree if thats what it took. Where do we draw the line? Does it have to be your child, Wife, brother, cousin or best friends child for you to understand what I'm talking about? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are supporting the position that it is acceptable to tie a deer to a tree, and let crippled kids shoot it. This is where you have to draw the line. And I can't imagine a Cancer kid getting any satisfaction out of shooting a deer tied to a tree.

If the hooker with Cancer wanted you to go to the Feed store and buy chickens so she could pull the wings off of them, alive, would you do it?

 

[A-con]

I think that what we mean by a "fence" (in this discussion)is a fence high enough that the animals contained within can not leave the enclosure.

It seems the only people that can draw a line are thoses on the far ends of opinion.

Eather all "fenced" hunts and private ownership of wild/native game is wrong, or any game farm is just fine.

There must be a middel ground (maby ?)

 

[A-con]

Elkfarmer, can you imagian a time when developers have aquired so much land that wild populations are in danger, and hunting them is outlawed, so the only hunting allowed is on game farms ?
I know it sounds far fetched, but fifteen years ago, you could buy property along the Madision river for ten grand an acer, now it's over ten times that. ( at least the piece that I looked at, and decided it was too expensive ! )

 

[JoseCuervo]

A-Con,

It is interesting your query about a Middle Ground. For some reason, I know that Elk is wrong behind a Fence, and people that hunt them are un-ethical. The practice must be stopped.

But I also know of Pheasant Farms, where guys pay $10 per bird to have some pen-raised rooster released in an 80 acre field, and then they walk out, have a pointer point it, and shoot it. My middle ground is that I am not worried about outlawing them, but I would not ever pay to do it myself. For some reason, and maybe it is less chance of spreading disease to a Wild population, it seems "tolerable" to have these Upland bird operations, even to the extent the Fish and Game is operting these on Wildlife Management Areas.

Elk, No!

Pheasants, If we must....