When is enough, enough?

[S.Dak Drifter]

As I have learned more and more about drawing tags in the west- I ask myself, when is enough, enough?

It seems that in almost any state that has preference points, there is point creep. Abysmal or true 0% draw odds for umpteen units due to creep. Is there any solution to this problem? When are some of these states going to change? Or is that not a possible solution?

I understand the viewpoint of someone who has 20+ years of points, but what about everyone else? What about future hunters who have never even yet been born that will never even have the opportunity to use a resource simply due to when they were born? I understand that not every state/unit is this way, but why is it that certain units will have to be forever unattainable to certain demographics of hunters?

Is there any hope for new/younger hunters to ever experience some of the more difficult to draw units/places?

Just some food for thought...

 

[mevertsen]

One thing that I notice with a lot of states is not burning points beyond your first choice.

People can build points and hunt every year with a draw tag.

I'm in NV and we have some tough draws as it is. If you draw a tag on any of your choices, you lose your points.

I wonder what that would do to the point creep in Wyoming for deer antelope and elk?

 

[BlakeA]

One thing a lot of NR's need to understand but fail to is hunting out of state is not a right. It's a privilege. The system isn't fair and never will be. These point "schemes" are just that but the states make a pile of money off of it so why would they change it? They do not need to cater to the NR's and never will. It's only going to get worse so you either continue to play their game or you stick to hunting your home state and save a lot of money. We each have the choice. State agencies are in the business of making money, not to please non residents. Expect the tag fees to continue to jump as well...year after year after year...

 

[Pelican]

Another partial solution would be to do what they do in Idaho e.g. if someone applies for sheep, they can’t apply for any other species that year.
Any potential solution is usually unpopular with some portion of hunters though. In CO, the system works okay for most hunt codes. It is really only a small percentage of hunts where the point creep is showing no signs of slowing down.

 

[Gr8bawana]

One thing that I notice with a lot of states is not burning points beyond your first choice.

People can build points and hunt every year with a draw tag.

I'm in NV and we have some tough draws as it is. If you draw a tag on any of your choices, you lose your points.

I wonder what that would do to the point creep in Wyoming for deer antelope and elk?

This would help because too many guys want to have it both ways. They want to hunt every year yet still build up points for limited entry areas in states that allow this.

 

[warmer]

One thing a lot of NR's need to understand but fail to is hunting out of state is not a right. It's a privilege. The system isn't fair and never will be. These point "schemes" are just that but the states make a pile of money off of it so why would they change it? They do not need to cater to the NR's and never will. It's only going to get worse so you either continue to play their game or you stick to hunting your home state and save a lot of money. We each have the choice. State agencies are in the business of making money, not to please non residents. Expect the tag fees to continue to jump as well...year after year after year...

The OP's problem also applies to SD residents, elk hunters in particular. We have so many hunters with 15-25 points in 4-5 different seasons, that young hunters have no chance to draw. I have 22 points for CSP rifle elk, 12 years for two archery seasons and I very likely will not draw before I am too old to hunt. So young hunters only hope is to beat the .00% odds.

 

[Big Fin]

Limited supply with high demand is not solved until either supply increases (more elk/deer/sheep) or demand decreases. It is that simple.

Point schemes are just that, schemes. A way of slicing the pie differently without increasing the size of the pie. When one piece gets bigger, the other piece(s) get smaller. Making a bigger pie is the only solution to the problem.

Since the majority of hunters seem more inclined to fight over a static/shrinking pie with the false impression that point schemes are the solution, the option of building a bigger pie and putting more critters in the hills seems to have less appeal. As long as the mindset prevails among the majority of applicants, expect point creep to continue and/or accelerate.

Add in the fact that folks searching for more tags promote the idea of squaring points, allowing people to acquire landowner vouchers while still accumulating points, not burning points on second/third choices, etc. only served to increase point creep.

I've said it many times; I'd junk every point system out there and give up double digit points in a lot of states, in exchange for getting rid of all point systems. Waiting periods, once-in-a-lifetime, or forcing hunters to apply for their favorite species (like ID does) would go a lot further in solving the supposed problems that point schemes are designed for.

Sit in on any hearing about point systems and see who the favored outcomes get slanted towards. Hint, it is not slanted to the benefit of younger hunters.

I would suggest accepting point creep as a reality, the same as hunting pressure, weather, fires, and other certainties. Once you accept point creep as part of the multi-state hunting gig, it is a lot easier to make short and long-term plans for hunting.

 

[kylemcintyre67]

As a brand new hunter I pretty much decided that I won't be joining in the point chase. I am willing to take my chances on random draw tags in New Mexico and hunt over the counter where and when I can. I realize this will be limiting to my opportunity for certain species and the places I will be able to hunt. I guess for me getting into the game this late just doesn't make sense. I enjoy my time out there in the woods and mountains regardless of what the quarry is. I didn't grow up reading or watching hunting media so I don't have lifelong dream species or places stuck in my head.

 

[warmer]

The target population for elk in the Black Hills of SD is 6000-7000 elk. That number is primarily based on social tolerance, (IE-landowner depredation, vehicle collision) and not on habitat capacity. Unfortunaely, I don't see the "pie" getting any bigger in SD. I ask respectfully, what can be done?

 

[MTGomer]

As a brand new hunter I pretty much decided that I won't be joining in the point chase. I am willing to take my chances on random draw tags in New Mexico and hunt over the counter where and when I can. I realize this will be limiting to my opportunity for certain species and the places I will be able to hunt. I guess for me getting into the game this late just doesn't make sense. I enjoy my time out there in the woods and mountains regardless of what the quarry is. I didn't grow up reading or watching hunting media so I don't have lifelong dream species or places stuck in my head.

There are a lot of hunts that can be drawn without a lot of points and a lot of tags that go to a lot of people in the ‘random round’.
Doing away with point schemes is my preferred way, but until that happens you’re unnecessarily limiting yourself from many great hunts that can be had every couple years.

 

[kylemcintyre67]

There are a lot of hunts that can be drawn without a lot of points and a lot of tags that go to a lot of people in the ‘random round’.
Doing away with point schemes is my preferred way, but until that happens you’re unnecessarily limiting yourself from many great hunts that can be had every couple years.

Yes I am. It also alleviates the aggravation of having to do a bunch of research and all that to figure it all out. I don't enjoy that process. I also don't have the cash to be applying in multiple states every year. I want to hunt closer to home to maximize my opportunity and alleviate expense. All of those factors for me make the points game not worth it. I'm not knocking anyone who is into it, and I understand why the systems are in place the way they are. I've just decided for me personally I'm not interested in participating.

 

[glass eye]

Yes I am. It also alleviates the aggravation of having to do a bunch of research and all that to figure it all out. I don't enjoy that process. I also don't have the cash to be applying in multiple states every year. I want to hunt closer to home to maximize my opportunity and alleviate expense. All of those factors for me make the points game not worth it. I'm not knocking anyone who is into it, and I understand why the systems are in place the way they are. I've just decided for me personally I'm not interested in participating.

In the past I would apply in multiple states for myself and my 2 kids. I enjoyed spending hours researching and then playing the odds. After my kids grew up and left home I started eliminating states and brought it down to just my home state CA and next door AZ where I had too many points that I couldn't just throw away. In AZ I've drawn on antelope and mule deer in 13b so I no longer apply for those. I have 25 turkey points and one day I have to draw a Gould's tag. After that I'll just apply for easy draw Merriam's and a 7 point draw elk tag.

My focus has been on hunting where I can plan OTC - DIY hunts. That is why I'm always going to Alaska, Hawaii, New Zealand.
Inexpensive hunts if you plan it right and don't need a mint on your pillow.

 

[Firedude]

Every system has it's flaws. I live in idaho and have never touched a controlled deer, elk, or antelope tag that wasn't "unlimited". I put in for those for 16 years. With points I would have drawn all 3 at least once and likely twice. I started putting in for trophy O.I.L. tags because odds were better. But now everyone else does too. Random can mean you NEVER hunt if general tags are lost.

I like wyoming's point with random system but would like to see more random tags vs point tags.

There are other options. Like a bonus point awarded every 5 years. At 5 years you double your odds, 10 years triple, etc. That way you have a better chance but nobody is out of the running. It would take so long to build a ton of points that nobody really could.

Increase sit out times. That helps with the randoms especially.

Point systems work great with specific hunter to tags ratios. But beyond that, creep kills. Idaho could have used one years ago but now the hunter ratio is getting to high so there is no point. The group in the first year would be the only ones to draw tags ever.

One really obvious answer would be to increase the amount of game. Some areas are managed for low numbers because of social reasons, not carrying capacities. I've seen herds of elk and antelope shot for eating hay...

 

[TexanSam]

Every system has it's flaws. I live in idaho and have never touched a controlled deer, elk, or antelope tag that wasn't "unlimited". I put in for those for 16 years. With points I would have drawn all 3 at least once and likely twice. I started putting in for trophy O.I.L. tags because odds were better. But now everyone else does too. Random can mean you NEVER hunt if general tags are lost.

I know plenty of people in my neighboring state of new mexico who never get to hunt because of this. Although, if they did have a point system, the NR pool would be flooded with Texans wanting their chance to hunt close to home and point creep would be horrendous

 

[brockel]

Turn preference points into bonus points.

 

[Bambistew]

I don't see the point systems as being a hinderance to new/young hunters. As mentioned there are lots of tags that take just a few points to draw, with little to no point creep.

Building points in other states doesn't really cost that much, if your goal is to get to hunt other states. Otherwise move to a state with good OTC opportunity, or easy to draw tags like ID, MT or WY. Or start building points in a number of states as well as applying for general tags, and you'll likely get to do at least one hunt every year if not more.

 

[Trial153]

It is was it is at this point. They all suck in one way or another. As long as there is money to be made the states aren’t going to mitigate the problem to any real degree. Yes there will be bandaids and token fixes like tiny random pools ...however for the most part it’s all status quo.

the dirty little secret is unless you have a hard cap on total applications for an iindividual for ALL the states they apply for you won’t see any improvement of odds or increased opportunity

 

[Keeptrying]

Turn preference points into bonus points.

That works until the old guys in the draw influence their state commission to cube their bonus points and tier for point levels in the draw.

 

[squirrel]

Limited supply with high demand is not solved until either supply increases (more elk/deer/sheep) or demand decreases. It is that simple.

Point schemes are just that, schemes. A way of slicing the pie differently without increasing the size of the pie. When one piece gets bigger, the other piece(s) get smaller. Making a bigger pie is the only solution to the problem.

Since the majority of hunters seem more inclined to fight over a static/shrinking pie with the false impression that point schemes are the solution, the option of building a bigger pie and putting more critters in the hills seems to have less appeal. As long as the mindset prevails among the majority of applicants, expect point creep to continue and/or accelerate.

Add in the fact that folks searching for more tags promote the idea of squaring points, allowing people to acquire landowner vouchers while still accumulating points, not burning points on second/third choices, etc. only served to increase point creep.

I've said it many times; I'd junk every point system out there and give up double digit points in a lot of states, in exchange for getting rid of all point systems. Waiting periods, once-in-a-lifetime, or forcing hunters to apply for their favorite species (like ID does) would go a lot further in solving the supposed problems that point schemes are designed for.

Sit in on any hearing about point systems and see who the favored outcomes get slanted towards. Hint, it is not slanted to the benefit of younger hunters.

I would suggest accepting point creep as a reality, the same as hunting pressure, weather, fires, and other certainties. Once you accept point creep as part of the multi-state hunting gig, it is a lot easier to make short and long-term plans for hunting.

But it would be nice if the bakery owner (F&G) worried more about increasing the size of the whole pie instead of just his sliver of said pie.

 

[fmnjr]

As someone who started hunting late in life, and who does not have unlimited resources, the discussion about how to maximize big game hunting opportunities is something I'm thinking about all the time. I've been reluctant to spend hours and hours researching because, crap, I've got other responsibilities to take care of. I'm aware of things like gohunt but haven't signed up yet. What other resources are out there to do DIY hunts which one can use to zero in on the information needed without getting caught up in the minutiae of multiple state reg books?