When Hunting became shooting.

[Steve O]

I didn't miss it at all. It's a good point. Now back to my question.. 5 yards, longbow, cedar shaft, obsidian tip, feathers and fingers, treestand whitetail buck on a milk river lease with his head in some spilt apples. More of a hunt than that of a deer/elk on usfs/wilderness, afar from vehicle access, where the guy has a backpack, spotter, 300 mag with a turret? Because the 2nd scenario is so easy right?

Genes a good guy I'm sure. I've met him. Lots of great traditional Bowhunters out there too. But the whole eletitist thing many of them project is a complete joke.

Shooting is part if hunting. Always will be unless you don't take bullets or arrows along.

Apples and oranges. A much better comparision would be the wilderness deer/elk hunt. That hunt with the stickbow would be much more of a HUNT. You start the "harvesting" phase of the 300 mag hunt at 1000 yards, the compound hunt at 100 yards, and the stickbow hunt at 50 yards. You get at least 950 yards more time to HUNT with the stickbow and a lot of stuff can happen in that distance I believe the point of the editorial is many today are missing out on a lot of the HUNT.

As an aside, nice Mountain Goat photo in the latest Boone & Crockett magazine.

 

[Deleted member 18333]

Interesting article but I think it makes a poor assumption. It assumes that the television hunting industry is a good representation of hunting in America. I think your average hunting show is as representative of hunting in America as the Bachelor is to dating, Real Housewives of Beverly Hills is to being a stay at home mom and Here Comes Honey Boo Boo is to being a 6 year old. The majority of these shows and the hosts of them have become caricatures of themselves in order to gain attention and money. However, they are completely in-accurate representations of what the vast majority of hunters act like, behave and motivation to hunt. How many of you reading this travel the country on your own bus going from stop to stop? How many of you use an outfitter for every hunt? How many of you bought your wife a new set to increase your hunting prowess? How many of you turn and face your camera man after a kill and start to weep and tell him "that's what i'm talking about"? How many of you get your tarp out, then your anemometer, dope the wind, dial in your turret and launch a bullet at the monster buck 1200 yards away then turn to Barry Bonds and tell him you laid the smack down on buck-zilla. I bet it's the same number of you that have 20 gorgeous sluts living in your house just wanting you to give them a rose. I imagine most of you hunt the way I do. With your family, friends, or by yourself. Out of your broke down truck, sleeping in a tent on the cold ground. Occasionally seeing an animal you want to kill but going home empty handed more often than not.

For the vast majority of us hunting has not changed. The portrayal of hunting has and not for the better. This portrayal is what shows like Randy's hope to change. Randy says his show is a portrayal of real hunting and we all agree. Not because we are the exception but rather the rule.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[The Hedgehog]

SteveO, Thanks. Suppose the 30+ days of boulder surfing, glassing at 10k, and middle of the night walking with a backpack doesn't count as "hunting" because I didn't drift a cedar shaft through it while wearing a crooked hat or signature stocking cap?

Not that I really care what anybody thinks. My opinions are different than Wensel's. His article's a fun read - but stickbow fags that look down their noses at others can be ridiculed just as easily. Happy 4th - time to fish.. No flies- no catch and release.

 

[mtmuley]

Yep, I agree with GH. No apologies. mtmuley

 

[howler]

I agree with mulecreek

 

[Durango Mike]

I think you sorta missed the point.

In todays world, that guy in the River bottom is taking that deer using ultra light weight carbon, projected out of a super Excalibur of a bow then shooting 60 yards at said buck. That wilderness rifleman is taking aim on that big mule deer at 1200 yards.

The hunt doesn't take the woodsmanship skills it once did. They are going by the way side for gadgetry.

The river bottom whitetail hunter doesn't have to get close anymore, and comparatively the gun hunter doesn't either.

It's become shooting vs hunting.

My objection is taking the primitive out of "primitive hunting" with too much technology, watched a show called "precision hunting" with a couple using muzzleloaders that they shoot off tripod mounts that support stock at 2 points, coupled with scopes that dial range and are able to put skirted bullets into an inch group at 200 yards using pelleted charges. So far in CO we still require open sights, loose powder and no sabots for the muzzy season. Rifles that are capable of making ethical shots at longer range I am totally ok with, along with compound bows as long as the person shooting them is ethical in shot choice and practices enough to know their limits and stick to them.

 

[Durango Mike]

Apples and oranges. A much better comparision would be the wilderness deer/elk hunt. That hunt with the stickbow would be much more of a HUNT. You start the "harvesting" phase of the 300 mag hunt at 1000 yards, the compound hunt at 100 yards, and the stickbow hunt at 50 yards. You get at least 950 yards more time to HUNT with the stickbow and a lot of stuff can happen in that distance I believe the point of the editorial is many today are missing out on a lot of the HUNT.

As an aside, nice Mountain Goat photo in the latest Boone & Crockett magazine.

Wow, you must be related to Howard Hill if you think stick bow "harveting" range starts at 50, compound at 100? 1,000 yards with any rifle (well maybe Carlos Hathcock with a Barrett 50). I have shot a bunch of whitetail with a re-curve but never past 25 yards and most inside 15, my largest elk at 30 with a compound. I assume just hyperbole on your part, but Greenhorn has a point, hunting is the finding part no matter what you are hunting with, taking an ethical killing shot is a small, but necessary part of the game. I think I get your point that getting close is the "hunt" part, and stealth is a virtue, but I would rather see someone hunting with a tool that will get the job done for them within their ethical limitations and skill and avoid marginal shots with a high likely hood of wounding. The only hunting TV that is worth watching is Fresh Tracks from what covid channel surfing has yielded for me.

 

[Sytes]

2013. This has to be a record! This new similar threads linky is impressive!

 

[Durango Mike]

2013. This has to be a record! This new similar threads linky is impressive!

Just discovered the "linky thing" aspect of the site and found the thread did not realize how vintage it was, that said it is still relevant today, perhaps more so as we now have even more technology at work on our gear. I will be more aware when reading the dates now that I know about the linky thing and how it works! LOL at myself! ah well a newbie learns by trial and error. By the way what is the thing on reaction score and trophy points I just noticed, what does it mean?

 

[MO Betta]

By the way what is the thing on reaction score and trophy points I just noticed, what does it mean?

Nothing of note, really. Reaction score is just how many likes your posts have received and trophy points are how many posting milestones you've reached.

 

[Deleted member 16014]

Nothing of note, really. Reaction score is just how many likes your posts have received and trophy points are how many posting milestones you've reached.

Wait wut? If this is true Randy I’m out of here.

 

[Deleted member 16014]

Kidding, though based on how they act some people seem to think there are legit on the line.

 

[morley.tyler]

;;;had trouble reading the entire posting because the sponsor pop up at the page bottom kept obstructing the text.

BTW,what type of treeestand does Wensel reccommend in his strategy book?

Probably the one my dad and I built on our place in Idaho 30 years ago. 2x4’s, plywood and an extension ladder. BTW- still works when it’s too cold to sneak.

 

[Hammsolo]

Remainder of article:

In long range shooting, with either gun or bow, the absolutely necessary and noble relationship between predator and prey is remarkably reduced or even eliminated. From greater distances, a game animal’s ability to even be aware of a hunter by way of their normal senses is reduced to all but worthless levels. Because of that fact, there is no longer any real connection with the animal, and therefore not much of a hunt. Elevated “shooting houses” set up on the edges of food plots are correctly named.
Many, if not most, modern hunters are opportunists. Fred Bear himself put that philosophy into motion with his “two season hunter” concept, which in truth was little more than a shrewd marketing plan, at least at the time. Most opportunists are essentially the definition of the word. They choose expediency over basic principles. A big problem surfaces when opportunists sacrifice principles. Opportunists not only despise failure, but most cannot handle it. They dislike eating tag soup, preferring to kill their game “the easiest legal way.” Going home with no blood on their hands apparently leaves a bad taste in their mouths.
Most opportunists don’t belong to much of anything, because many are simply users who don’t really care. There is a big difference in having an interest in something and being passionate enough about anything to really care.
Hunters need to encourage and embrace the challenge instead of the “kill at all costs” attitude. Risking an unfilled tag will require re-education of the general public to the sweetness of maybe accomplishing things a harder way, which is often also a simpler way. It becomes a values thing.
Slipping the crossbow mentality and justification into archery seasons under the disguise of it being a “more efficient weapon” (there’s that weapon word again) is little more than an opportunist’s excuse and a money driven marketing ploy. I had a hard time not laughing when an able-bodied neighbor of my brother lobbed off two of his fingers the very first time he took a shot at a nice buck with his new crossbow.
True disabilities aside, there is simply no reason to allow crossbows outside of gun seasons. When states dump the truly physically impaired requisite, we end up with 90% being mere opportunists. Once again, our biggest problem comes along when these opportunists sacrifice principles. Our deep outdoor passion should never be thought of as any sort of “entitlement,” which unfortunately is the way the majority of users interpret things today. In reality, opportunists might have efficiency, but they display very little class.
Using bows and arrows at ultra close range puts the hunt in hunting. Was a big buck shot from a vehicle hunted or simply shot? Was he an accomplishment to be proud of or closer to nothing but a victim? In truth, many “sport hunters” have little or no desire (or time) to honestly engage an animal up close and personal, instead following the simplistic philosophy that getting a job done the quickest, easiest way is the best way. This last sentence in itself is a sad reminder that the hunting process has been watered down to pathetic levels. We need to get back into the woods! Shortening the learning curve that comes as a part of any apprenticeship is not the answer. Hunting needs to once again become a “values” issue, accepting challenges but not pushing past them. Extending one’s personal range limits quickly takes our passion from the level of a challenge to that of a stunt, often justified solely by the fact they saw someone on TV pull it off once.
Respect for wildlife continues to diminish. Deer are not targets. We are not at war with wildlife. Product names need not imply death, destruction, fury, evil, or hatred.
Who could have predicted egotistical hunting celebrities would someday show up in tour buses and pickup trucks that look more like they belong in a parade? Who would have guessed that hunting celebrities would make statements like, “I wouldn’t think of going hunting without wearing Brand X camo.” Who “woulda thunk” broadheads would sell for $40 each and the hunting industry would get to where breast implants would become a deductible business expense?
Hunting, our beloved passion, needs to be redefined and fixed...reborn if you will.

For those not aware of by now, PBS has a brand new official “Preservation of Bowhunting Committee” to implicate and connect more real bowhunters with serious yet passionate people who already belong to PBS. I’m excited about this. Members of the Professional Bowhunters Society are among a very unique group, self-limiting their standards in equipment, techniques and values by their own free will. Their hearts, as well as their values, are in the right place. Self imposed rules of conduct can and should be shared, shown, and encouraged by wise, strong-willed people with good values. As things play out now, right or wrong is too often cast aside during the process of interpretation.
It has always fascinated me how flyfishermen can smoothly pull off crusading their passion and beliefs with mass acceptance. They have their very own organizations, seasons, stretches of water, their own magazines, TV shows, mail order catalogs, outfitters, etc. without seemingly offending other fishermen using bait, spinning rods or high tech gear. They express and even flaunt class right before the eyes of gill crushers with minimal opposition. How can they do that? One of the reasons is that fishing can be a non-consumptive catch and release pastime, while death is a part of hunting that cannot be avoided nor denied quite as easily.
I can’t help but ask myself why high-tech hunters, once they “master” their hunting tools, don’t naturally and instinctively realize such and revert to increasing personal challenge levels one way or another rather than pushing onward.
PBS will regain our identity only by embracing the journey…. selling the process rather than the product. There is nothing wrong with intensity, but we must express love of the hunt rather than lust for the hunt! Admitting and agreeing that there is in fact a problem that clear thinking could help is a step in the right direction, even if addressed one hunter at a time.
If you haven’t read or contributed to the multiple posted threads concerning the future of PBS as a voice to be heard, by all means join the conversation with opinions and ideas on our www.probowsociety.net website.
PBS is in the process of putting together a short film about our philosophies. Your help will be appreciated in any capacity. What the Montana Bowhunters Association has put together will give you an idea of a similar vision for and about PBS. I invite you to view the MBA’s video at www.mtba.org
Those in our circle have been talking about the dilemmas within modern hunting practices and the truth that there is a need to do something about them, but until now, the answers have been unclear. Translating these tasks to actions will be our biggest new challenge. We need to educate the masses to realize that at least right now, more of them are guilty than innocent.
In truth, this opinion article you are reading would never be seen published in any mainstream outdoor media because it would piss off multiple advertisers enough for them to jump ship. When principles face profits, the outcome is seldom positive. Outdoor media needs to first recognize the fact that currently they are part of the problem more than the solution.
PBS is a very unique group, one you should be proud of. It is not for everyone, but each of us reading these words know people who should belong to this organization but don’t. Our future is looking bright once again, mostly because it’s time to put the hunt back in hunting. Pass the word!

This is a lot to consider. I agree with some and disagree with others. There may have been a good old days for him, but data says this is the better new days for most in most cases. Yes, right now the world is an ever loving show.

I’ll go a different direction than planned. What are you doing about it? Yes, I mean you. We, every damn one of us, are the change or none change. If you’re alive you’re effecting the system. Let each of us make it a positive effect. Talk to the neighbor kid. Take him out fishing. Share a beer with your neighbor with different views. Today I planned an Eagle Scout Project with my student. I will be taking my foster son hunting this weekend. Am I perfect! Hell no! Shit I’m drinking beer watching “Alone” with my family right now.

Get out. Do something. For tomorrow you may be fertilizer.

 

[Hammsolo]

I think you sorta missed the point.

In todays world, that guy in the River bottom is taking that deer using ultra light weight carbon, projected out of a super Excalibur of a bow then shooting 60 yards at said buck. That wilderness rifleman is taking aim on that big mule deer at 1200 yards.

The hunt doesn't take the woodsmanship skills it once did. They are going by the way side for gadgetry.

The river bottom whitetail hunter doesn't have to get close anymore, and comparatively the gun hunter doesn't either.

It's become shooting vs hunting.

The danger is speaking in absolutes. A gift is to leave all, everyone, always, and never out of conversations.

 

[BWALKER77]

Die hard bowhunters suck. It would be fine by me if the wounding season aka bowhunting went away completely.

 

[sethkuhl]

Die hard bowhunters suck. It would be fine by me if the wounding season aka bowhunting went away completely.

yikes

 

[sethkuhl]

It is statements like this that seperate outdoorsmen and create a splice in our ranks like our nation has slowly wondered to. This will be the end of our heritage when we divide and start fighting each other. I hunt with a rifle, bow, shotgun any chance I can in any season I can. I encourage others to do the same!

 

[HSi-ESi]

I've wasted more time on this forum than I thought over the years....

I do like the micro-shift that OYOA/Fresh-Tracks/Newberg and other shows that have been showing the parts of the hunt that are so important to so many. Yeah, we may not "need" the meat to survive. But "we" do need this type of meat to survive. I don't care if you knap your own broadheads or buy over the counter core-locks. Keep instilling the woodsmanship and hunting heritage in younger generations.

 

[JLS]

Die hard bowhunters suck. It would be fine by me if the wounding season aka bowhunting went away completely.

I’ve seen plenty of wounding debacles from rifles over the years.