Whats your take on the "GLYPHOSATE" Round Up Lawsuit in California

[pointingdogsrule]

One of the things with this study is the dosage rates. Female rats (F0 generation) transiently exposed (25 mg/kg body weight glyphosate daily) . To get that dosage in humans you would have to eat a lot foods that contain a ton of glyphosate. Quaker Oats seems to the the highest I could find. 2,837 ppb which is 2.837 mg/kg, meaning you would have to eat 10 bowls of cereal daily to get to the levels they tested. European limits are 0.3 mg/kg/bw/daily, which means you are eating 9.5 times their allowable limit with one bowl. Conflicting information abound with this one.

There is so much conflicting information on Glyphosate.

FDA - https://www.fda.gov/food/pesticides/questions-and-answers-glyphosate

Detox Project - https://detoxproject.org/glyphosate-in-food-water/

Wheat foundation - https://wheatfoundation.org/the-truth-about-glyphosate-part-1-how-do-wheat-growers-use-glyphosate/

Ecowatch - https://www.ecowatch.com/monsanto-glyphosate-cheerios-2093130379.html

Who knows what it does or does not do.

I think it would be best for everyone to start a garden and start to grow more of their own food. That way you know where it is coming from.

How dare you bring logic and facts into this discussion

 

[Irrelevant]

Yep.

That is one of the main reasons I am not very fond of “organic” foods at the store. The yield per acre is lower for organic farming resulting in more acres disturbed to produce the same amount of food. Result: less acres for wildlife.

I'd like to think it would be less acres for ethanol but that's wishful thinking.

 

[375H&H]

I'd like to think it would be less acres for ethanol but that's wishful thinking.

Never less acres for ethanol thanks to places like good ol’ Washington state.

Washington House passes bill to establish Clean Fuels Program | Ethanol Producer Magazine

The state of Washington is one step closer to mandating the use of cleaner transportation fuels. The state's House recently passed legislation to establish

ethanolproducer.com

 

[BigHornRam]

Yikes. I hope we are prepared to give up hunting and fishing and wild places if we have to feed the country with places like this. With intensified farming practices we already take up huge amounts of land to feed 300+ million. These type of ag systems take up more land, more resources, and are less efficient at producing calories for humans, period. And we are only adding more humans and mouths to the heap as we go. I find it interesting that the well-off members of society seem to gravitate towards agricultural practices that are WORSE for out outdoor spaces.

Disclaimer: I am a scientist for one of the largest privately owned agricultural companies in the world.

This farm is on a small acerage and is surrounded by subdivision and small acre parcels. Large scale ag will not work on parcels like that but this type of farming will.

Here's another nearby small acre farm that produces way more calories per acre than the abandoned knapweed farm behind it does.


The people that run it do work their asses off, and there definitely has to be easier ways to make a living no doubt.

As for giving up space for wild game and hunting, Western Montana alone has 10's of millions of acres already that is in no way suitable to agriculture. It does however produce a good crop of "free range organic" elk and deer.

 

[IdahoPotato]

This farm is on a small acerage and is surrounded by subdivision and small acre parcels. Large scale ag will not work on parcels like that but this type of farming will.

Here's another nearby small acre farm that produces way more calories per acre than the abandoned knapweed farm behind it does.
View attachment 106596

The people that run it do work their asses off, and there definitely has to be easier ways to make a living no doubt.

As for giving up space for wild game and hunting, Western Montana alone has 10's of millions of acres already that is in no way suitable to agriculture. It does however produce a good crop of "free range organic" elk and deer.
View attachment 106597

That's all fine. Hobby farms and hunting are neat ways that we are privileged enough to afford supplement our diets. Make no mistake that these are hobbies of the 1% of the world.

But my original point was really that our current population requires industrialized, intensified, and increasingly efficient agricultural practices to feed our growing population. This permaculture, organic, manual labor, greenhouse nonsense ain't gonna cut it. Here's some envelope math since you mention Montana:

There are 1.062 million people in the state. (US Census data)
Average per-capita meat consumption is 214 lbs per person, per year - this is total meat and poultry. (World Economic Forum)
There are 163,000 Elk running around Montana (Billings Gazette)
At ~225 lbs of edible meat on an elk on average, that's 36,675,000 lbs of meat running around.
The people of Montana eat 227,268,000 lbs of meat a year.

Translated to elk, the state of Montana would eat 1,010,080 elk if they replaced all meat with elk.

Or, they would eat 6.2 times the number of elk that are currently in Montana, EVERY YEAR.

And what if we got rid of all the cows and tried to replace them with elk? The deficit is grim at best. Cattle make use of marginal elk habitat, mountainous forage, food waste and byproducts, and grains and grain by product. We domesticated them for a reason - because they turn just about anything we give them into a perfect protein.

Do you see where this math falls apart? We could go through the same for vegetables, and it would be equally ludicrous since the growing season in Montana is down around the shortest in the country. Plus, you just can't grow most of the food we eat in Montana. That's why California feeds this country the majority of our fruits and veggies with intensified and industrialized agriculture. Corn and the commodities of the central part of the country are a whole 'nother bag of worms.

If you really care about the environment, you should care about birth control.

Edit: Editing because I cited total meat, not beef. My apologies.

https://www.nationalchickencouncil....d-livestock-1965-to-estimated-2012-in-pounds/

 

[1976]

I guess I'm a walking dead man at 43, been using glyphosate substantially for all of 26 yrs, but then again I remember grandpa and his brother mixing 2/4 D with no PPE and a cigarette hanging from their mouth for in crop, and thats all they ever used, and only god knows what chemicals they used for varmints, and bugs, and not to forget good old fosstoxin which hitler found useful, for a grain storage fumigate. They both made it to their 80s before meeting their maker. And one has to remember Californians hand out verdicts for hot spilled coffee in a moving car, outlawed cat hunting, made hound hunting recently illegal for bears. I hate to say it but maybe mexico will be willing purchase it back. LOL

 

[NR_Hunter]

I just came in here to say how annoyed I get when people pronounce glyphosate “glyphosPHate”

 

[antlerradar]

Eliminating Roundup may have some negative effects on the environment. I suspect that with out Roundup no till farming would no longer be practical. Farmers would need to go back to plowing the fields. This would require substantially more diesel and would also result in more soil erosion. Farmers would also have to revert back to other herbicides that last much longer in the environment. Someone that is a wheat farmer would know better than I.

I am all for people growing food in there back yard if they want to, but yard agricultural ever being able to feed the population is a pipe dream. The vast majority of the population have green space that is too small or too unproductive to grow even a fraction of there food. When I was a boy my family had a big garden of better than a 1/4 acre of irrigated bottom land. We grew most of our veggies but still had to buy some. I spent days of you youth weeding the garden. I don't have a garden now and don't miss it one bit. It was amazing how once my brother and I left for school and the free labor was no longer available how the garden got smaller and eventually disappeared.

 

[BigHornRam]

Our countries modern industrialized agriculture system relies heavily on subsidies to operate.

Agricultural Subsidies

The U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) spends $25 billion or more a year on subsidies for farm businesses. The particular amount each year depends on the market prices of crops and other factors. Most agricultural subsidies go to farmers of a handful of major crops, including wheat, corn...

www.downsizinggovernment.org

I do understand how we have come to this point. These subsidies will not last forever. Venezuela and the former Solviet Union come to mind, and then what? Having personal skills to grow, and preserve your own food will become more than just a hobby. Some people will learn these skills, and some won't.

 

[BigHornRam]

Getting back to the original topic, herbicides are useful tools that need to be used wisely. The lawsuit mentality in California is a cancer, and will eventually be that states demise.

 

[Irrelevant]

tangentially... DDT is still present in my community at levels that are toxic to exposure for children. It was banned 47 years ago. Arsenic is also commonly found in levels that exceed human health standards, it was used prior to DDT. So I'm skeptical that we're over F-ing ourselves with pesticides/herbicides.

 

[ringer]

My BIL died of breast cancer at 62. He owned a weed control biz for 40 years. Only a small percentage of men get that and the doctors thought it may have been from long term exposure to the Roundup and other weed killers. They never even thought to sue but it doesn't mean the stuff is good for your health. My shop uses nitro lacquers and thinners. In the old days the workers here would put their hands in the thinners to clean equipment. One of them developed major medical issues and after I bought he place 17 years ago I made sure they use all protection possible. Things have changed and we are learning that a lot of chemicals can kill us. When I was young we never even thought about that.

 

[TheDudeAbides]

That's all fine. Hobby farms and hunting are neat ways that we are privileged enough to afford supplement our diets. Make no mistake that these are hobbies of the 1% of the world.

But my original point was really that our current population requires industrialized, intensified, and increasingly efficient agricultural practices to feed our growing population. This permaculture, organic, manual labor, greenhouse nonsense ain't gonna cut it. Here's some envelope math since you mention Montana:

There are 1.062 million people in the state. (US Census data)
Average per-capita meat consumption is 214 lbs per person, per year - this is total meat and poultry. (World Economic Forum)
There are 163,000 Elk running around Montana (Billings Gazette)
At ~225 lbs of edible meat on an elk on average, that's 36,675,000 lbs of meat running around.
The people of Montana eat 227,268,000 lbs of meat a year.

Translated to elk, the state of Montana would eat 1,010,080 elk if they replaced all meat with elk.

Or, they would eat 6.2 times the number of elk that are currently in Montana, EVERY YEAR.

And what if we got rid of all the cows and tried to replace them with elk? The deficit is grim at best. Cattle make use of marginal elk habitat, mountainous forage, food waste and byproducts, and grains and grain by product. We domesticated them for a reason - because they turn just about anything we give them into a perfect protein.

Do you see where this math falls apart? We could go through the same for vegetables, and it would be equally ludicrous since the growing season in Montana is down around the shortest in the country. Plus, you just can't grow most of the food we eat in Montana. That's why California feeds this country the majority of our fruits and veggies with intensified and industrialized agriculture. Corn and the commodities of the central part of the country are a whole 'nother bag of worms.

If you really care about the environment, you should care about birth control.

Edit: Editing because I cited total meat, not beef. My apologies.

https://www.nationalchickencouncil....d-livestock-1965-to-estimated-2012-in-pounds/

Now.

Just throw out some fruit numbers here.

2 Dwarf Apple Trees (8-10') will give you about 120 lbs a apples a year.

2 Full sized Apple Trees (40') will give you about 2,400 lbs a apples a year.

2 Full sized Pear Trees will give you about 720 lbs of pears a year

2 Full sized Cherry Trees will give you about 268lbs of cherries a year

2 Full sized Peach Trees will give you about 404lbs of peaches a year

2 Full sized Apricot trees will give you about 752 lbs of apricots a year

2 full sized Plum Trees will give you about 582 lbs of plums a year

2 blackberry plants will give you about 2lbs a year

2 raspberry plants will give you about 2lbs per year

2 strawberry plants will give you about 2lbs per year

2 Aronia plants will give you about 12lbs per year

2 Elderberry plants will give you about 8lbs per year

2 High Bush Blueberry plants will give you about 36lbs per year

2 Low Bush Blueberry plants will give you about 3lbs per year

2 Grape vines will give you about 40 lbs of grapes per year

2 Hardy Kiwi vines will give you about 100lbs of kiwis a year

2 Seaberry plants will give you about 100lbs of fruit per year

2 Buffaloberry plants will give you about 80lbs of fruit per year




If you had a 500 sq ft back yard and planted 4 dwarf apple trees (480lbs a year), 4 Aronia bushes (48lbs a year), and 10 raspberries (20lbs a year). You would produce 548lbs of food, which is more than enough to feed a family of two.

 

[TheDudeAbides]

Eliminating Roundup may have some negative effects on the environment. I suspect that with out Roundup no till farming would no longer be practical. Farmers would need to go back to plowing the fields. This would require substantially more diesel and would also result in more soil erosion. Farmers would also have to revert back to other herbicides that last much longer in the environment. Someone that is a wheat farmer would know better than I.

I am all for people growing food in there back yard if they want to, but yard agricultural ever being able to feed the population is a pipe dream. The vast majority of the population have green space that is too small or too unproductive to grow even a fraction of there food. When I was a boy my family had a big garden of better than a 1/4 acre of irrigated bottom land. We grew most of our veggies but still had to buy some. I spent days of you youth weeding the garden. I don't have a garden now and don't miss it one bit. It was amazing how once my brother and I left for school and the free labor was no longer available how the garden got smaller and eventually disappeared.

If you can convert your lawn to a 7 layer food forest, then you could feed a family. Due to the design it will allow for more food to be grown in a smaller space.

Town parks can be converted to systems that support the people. https://www.npr.org/sections/thesal...-food-forests-make-fruit-free-for-the-picking

It is possible anywhere including Wyoming.

You can get great harvests in your backyard.

It may not solve the worlds issues, but it certainly wont hurt.

 

[375H&H]

If you can convert your lawn to a 7 layer food forest, then you could feed a family. Due to the design it will allow for more food to be grown in a smaller space.

Town parks can be converted to systems that support the people. https://www.npr.org/sections/thesal...-food-forests-make-fruit-free-for-the-picking

It is possible anywhere including Wyoming.

You can get great harvests in your backyard.

It may not solve the worlds issues, but it certainly wont hurt.

Maybe.

But I would rather spend the short Wyoming growing season hiking, camping, hunting, scouting, fishing, traveling, etc. than trying to make marginal ground slightly productive.

But that is just me.

 

[rmauch20]

I’m all for growing your own food, I enjoy gardening and tending my apple and pear trees, but it is still work and there are good and bad years.
Expecting backyard farming to catch on is laughable. Most people have trouble keeping a house plant live. Pesticides and herbicides are necessary in today’s modern farming techniques. If you want to go %100 organic it is pretty easy to discover what are you yields will be. Simply go look at the yields from around 1890-1910. That would provide a nice 20 year window what to expect. There’s gonna to be a lot of hungry folks.

For Comparison
The 1918 kansas wheat crop
Total production 97,710,00
Yield per acre 13.5

2017 Kansas wheat crop
Total production 333,600,00
Yield per acre 48

Your going to need more apple trees!

 

[Ajax2744]

Now.

Just throw out some fruit numbers here.

2 Dwarf Apple Trees (8-10') will give you about 120 lbs a apples a year.

2 Full sized Apple Trees (40') will give you about 2,400 lbs a apples a year.

2 Full sized Pear Trees will give you about 720 lbs of pears a year

2 Full sized Cherry Trees will give you about 268lbs of cherries a year

2 Full sized Peach Trees will give you about 404lbs of peaches a year

2 Full sized Apricot trees will give you about 752 lbs of apricots a year

2 full sized Plum Trees will give you about 582 lbs of plums a year

2 blackberry plants will give you about 2lbs a year

2 raspberry plants will give you about 2lbs per year

2 strawberry plants will give you about 2lbs per year

2 Aronia plants will give you about 12lbs per year

2 Elderberry plants will give you about 8lbs per year

2 High Bush Blueberry plants will give you about 36lbs per year

2 Low Bush Blueberry plants will give you about 3lbs per year

2 Grape vines will give you about 40 lbs of grapes per year

2 Hardy Kiwi vines will give you about 100lbs of kiwis a year

2 Seaberry plants will give you about 100lbs of fruit per year

2 Buffaloberry plants will give you about 80lbs of fruit per year




If you had a 500 sq ft back yard and planted 4 dwarf apple trees (480lbs a year), 4 Aronia bushes (48lbs a year), and 10 raspberries (20lbs a year). You would produce 548lbs of food, which is more than enough to feed a family of two.

You can sure make a ton of booze out of all that...just saying lol

 

[VikingsGuy]

Our countries modern industrialized agriculture system relies heavily on subsidies to operate.

Agricultural Subsidies

The U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) spends $25 billion or more a year on subsidies for farm businesses. The particular amount each year depends on the market prices of crops and other factors. Most agricultural subsidies go to farmers of a handful of major crops, including wheat, corn...

www.downsizinggovernment.org

I do understand how we have come to this point. These subsidies will not last forever. Venezuela and the former Solviet Union come to mind, and then what? Having personal skills to grow, and preserve your own food will become more than just a hobby. Some people will learn these skills, and some won't.

I am not a fan of the current USDA framework, but let's put this spend in context - it is only $75 per person in the US (a $1.50/week) - a very small portion of the household grocery bill.

 

[BigHornRam]

I am not a fan of the current USDA framework, but let's put this spend in context - it is only $75 per person in the US (a $1.50/week) - a very small portion of the household grocery bill.

True, but there are other associated costs to the taxpayers that you have not factored in do to the political wrangling that goes on to keep these subsidies in place.

"Farm subsidies have never made economic sense, but farm interests have held sway in Congress. While farmers are a small share of the U.S. population today, the farm lobby is still strong. One reason is that farm-state legislators have co-opted the support of urban legislators by including food-stamp subsidies in farm bills. Other legislators support farm bills because of the inclusion of conservation subsidies."

People here complain about the low BLM and USFS grazing rates. I don't have a problem with those rates, as long as the lessees graze their livestock with good stewardship in mind. I do support the CRP program.

I also think that people in our country take our abundant and cheap food supply entirely for granted and a day is coming when folks will wish they hadn't. Time will tell, and I hope I'm not around to witness it.

 

[TheDudeAbides]

You can sure make a ton of booze out of all that...just saying lol

Hank Shaw does have an elderberry liqueur recipe

Elderberry Liqueur Recipe - How to Make Elderberry Liqueur | Hank Shaw

Instructions on how to make elderberry liqueur from fresh elderberries; this recipe keeps the berries whole, which makes a clean, dark liqueur.

honest-food.net