What's Wrong With Elk Farms

[Deerslayer]

Damn....the stuff dreams are made of!

.......as we slipped through the timbers towards our stand, we spotted 8 elk.....HEADING TO THE FEED TROUGH!".....

....."4 inches of the white stuff made our movement easy..... AND ALL IT TOOK WAS RATTLING THE OLD BUCKET TO BRING 'EM IN RANGE!".....

....."the guide told me not to shoot the big 8x8....that the 7x7 pulling up the rear was bigger scoring 400.....AND HE SHOULD KNOW, SEEING AS HOW THEY HAD ALL BE PREVIOUSLY MEASURED AND WEIGHED!"

......" my heart pounded as I took the magnificent creature. It's not the rockies.......BUT YOU JUST CANT BEAT 12' OF FENCE FOR BEING SUCCESSFUL!"


.....these are the hunts I lay awake at night thinking of......

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 03-04-2003 14:42: Message edited by: Deerslayer ]</font>

 

[280]

take note Tom

 

[Lostagain]

here's a link for the NOT faint of heart.

http://www.geocities.com/elkwild/gamfarmhistory.htm

 

[The Hedgehog]

By the way if that fatboy's elk is 400, my wee-wee is 40" long.

Some people are just too stupid for words.

 

[Bullhound]

I love it! Cracks me up!

 

[Ten Bears]

Somebody define "HUNTING".

 

[Lostagain]

Greenie=== do you remember quite a few years ago some cattle place over outa White Sulphur fenced out the critters from his place? Something like 50k acres, then the F&G had people go in and shoot everything and after a coupla years the critters that were left in the enclosure were then his. Is that now the avalanche basin place?

 

[danr55]

Well, that settles it. That elk can't be 400 because everyone knows that Greenknees has a wee wee... Afterall, he's why they call it a wee wee...

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 03-04-2003 18:00: Message edited by: danr55 ]</font>

 

[The Hedgehog]

Dan, as you should know, the impressiveness doesn't come from the wee-wee. It's the pile-drivin ass behind it.

 

[pa mt man]

That New York bull is nice, but I'll but it was an easy hunt.
Now elk hunting in Pa sounds like the way a lot of you guys want. Wild elk, no fences,NO cwd, ATV's, cheap guides and licenses, and monster bulls!!!! Don

http://www.lancasteronline.com/cgi-bin/tellafriend/return.cgi?page=www.lancasteronline.com/articles/1254.shtm


http://www.huntingpa.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=41;t=000305

 

[Tom]

I'm back, I want to get into this and it started while I was on a trip to Oregon. Most of these arguments I've read before. I think I even read the Geist article before but will reread it. There are other biologists who are very successful with high fence game management in several states of the US and in other countries, Geist is not one of those. I like the variety idea, I think public lands will be what protects public wildlife, they have to have that habitat and so long as they have that, they will survive. I don't think all animals have to live that way, not even do I think that it is desireable for all of them to live that way. Its still true in the US that there are more wild animals on private lands than on public lands and I view high fence as a very effective way for management on private lands. Its actually used on two places here in Texas for public lands too, the Kerr Wildlife Management Area, where a lot of whitetail deer research has been done, is one. They also put a high fence completely around Chapparal Wildlife Management Area here (15,000 acres) in south Texas several years back. Its one of the most desireable places for a public hunt here in Texas, so the high fence is even used on public land here for good wildlife management. My understanding is that it helps them count deer, etc. and keep poachers under control.

It seems one of biggest problems the anti-fence people have is the freedom of the animals. The easiest way to deal with that on a high fence hunt is to say something like, when hunting there I'll stay away from the fence, so the animal is free to get away from the hunter in some cover. The animals are there because they are under good management, i.e. have feed, water, and cover. The hunting is done to manage the population, just like on public lands, we hunt to manage the population. That's one of the necessary purposes that hunting serves, and that purpose serves to justify hunting to the public also. Its amazing to me that hunters would not see high fence hunting as serving that purpose well on a high fence place also, like the game farm elk in Montana. It seems to me letting people shoot those elk, will help get rid of them sooner, rather than later. I would have voted against I-143 if I lived there probably, but that is only part of the issues being discussed over and over again here. I think people are learning more about the other view sometimes, most of the time, something stupid is said, but sometimes, I read something from the other view that is trying to communicate something informative. The posts that seem stupid to me are those where somebody just says how pissed they are, how stupid the other view is, and they don't try to contribute anything other than that. We all have the right to our opininon, but it would be good to add information for others also.

The high fence has been shown over many years of use to be good management in many places. Just because Geist hasn't done that, or because some places have not done it right, doesn't mean it can't work. It sure doesn't mean wild and free public animals will go away either.

There's no heat here, those blowing the hot air are the ones sitting in it at their computer.

Here's an attempt at the other view:

What's Not Wrong With Elk Farms:


Loss of Wildlife Habitat

Elk would usually be pushed out of this habitat by hunting pressure. The high fence protects their life there from hunters and provides elk for those who can’t get it other ways.

Harbors and Spread of Diseases

Elk farms test and control diseases as opposed to out in the wild where they run rampant.

Genetic Degradation to free ranging elk and deer herds

This effect is trivial compared to effects of hunters killing the biggest of elk for many years.

Commercialization

Providing a legal commercial source of elk parts reduces the pressure of hunting the free ranging ones.

Domestication

With elk on public lands, the public lands protect the wild elk. With elk on elk farms, there is less pressure to invade and to use up the wild elk. In this way elk farms help protect the wild elk.

Privatization

To the extent the state wildlife agencies need support from private elk, they can collect fees to support those activities. Private land owners already provide for many of the public animals and are doing an admirable job. With privatization there is a greater market to collect money for elk management. If the hunters cannot support the public wildlife costs, perhaps a Pittman-Robertson type fee could be applied to elk farms for the wild elk as well. In state hunters should pay more for their elk management though, many states collect the majority of their fees from out of state hunters do not support their elk adequately.


The Cruelty of Velveting

If elk suffer from this procedure, methods can be implemented to lessen the suffering. We already have many laws preventing cruelty to animals, apparently this is not cruelty or it would not be allowed.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 03-07-2003 08:15: Message edited by: Tom ]</font>

 

[Deerslayer]

Tom Says...."The animals are there because they are under good management, i.e. have feed, water, and cover. "

....uh, Tom,...I think the animals are there because of 12' of net wire fencing

....from the moment they were unloaded from the trailor into the enclosure, their territory was "defined" for them. It had little to do with feed, water and cover. These things were provided to them simply to sustain them, but don't think for a second that is why they are there....

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 03-05-2003 09:20: Message edited by: Deerslayer ]</font>

 

[Tom]

Deerslayer, You would be talking about a bad example of high fence, I would be talking about a good example, like Kerr Wildlife management area, like Chapparal Wildlife management area. Those public wild animals there, were there before the fence was. They are managed better now with the fence.

Don't tell me what to think, that's stupid, tell me something informative.

If you're talking about some other place, fine, it ain't the places I was thinking of. We can discuss one of those if you want, just name it. My understanding is that a lot of the elk farms are where elk freely roam, and the anti's don't want the fence to stop them from roaming. The elk were at those places too. Your point seems pretty irrelevent to the issue of whether animals were there originally or not, unless you name a specific place. Even RMEF moves elk around, its good management.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 03-05-2003 09:45: Message edited by: Tom ]</font>

 

[Deerslayer]

Tom, I could care less what you think, really, I could. And I tried to tell you something informative by telling you it was not the food water and cover that kept the animals enclosed, but rather the fence itself.

You have picked a particular case study, but when defending pen farms, you have to take them all. They are not all 3 zillion square acres. And I do believe it is the fence that keeps the animals there. Oh, they may would visit from time to time, but few wild animals would call one particular piece of ground home without wandering. Those Zebras and Kudus were not always there, nor did they show up because of the food cover and water.

I have zero problem with your pen hunting. But just call it what it is, and don't pretend the animals chose to live there.
Cut the friggin fence and watch some of those animals leave, and other animals enter. It is what wild animals do.

Texans havean answer for everything when it comes to Pen Hunts. It is a way of life there. I'm glad you have it. I'm glad I have the Rockies where I can hunt big game on their own terms.

You see, it IS a perfect world. We both get what we want.

 

[Tom]

We both have the Rockies and the high fence hunts, not you one and me the other, "don't think that for one second". Ok, the fence keeps them there. You don't have to take them all in any one discussion. Montanan's run there's the way they want, Texan's run theirs the way they want. I don't know what kudu's and zebra's you're talking about.

 

[Deerslayer]

So if "You don't have to take them all in any one discussion"....does this mean your arguement for pen farms is not good for the small ones, and at exactly what size do you propose extracting them? You only endorse the larger ones? There are no penned Kudus and Zebras in Texas? The YO Ranch is a large one, and you can shoot any zoo animal you want there, just bring a fat check book. And I am sure there are many others that fence in similiar animals.....that are no doubt there for the water, cover and food provided them.

No we don't both have the high fenced hunt, I'll opt out of that one thank you very much. I went on one "shoot", in order to get to meet some folks. But one "shoot" will probably take me the distance. I don't see another one in my future. But you go right ahead. Nothing at all wrong with it in my book. Just don't make it out to be more than it is. If an animal is fenced, he is not "free roaming" and cannot be recognized in Boone and Crocket or Pope and Young, and for good reason. They are fair chase proponents. That is why you have a pen hunt record book, so those animals can be recognized for what they are as well. No matter how big the pen, Tom, one rattle of the feed bucket usually will do it.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 03-05-2003 12:19: Message edited by: Deerslayer ]</font>

 

[Deerslayer]

Here's you a link Tom! Some new "recruits" for you!LOL I think with just a little work, you can convert them good ole boys and make them see the light! You need to log on and jump right in that topic and straighten their asses out!LOL.....they'd eat you alive!

http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID7/2330.html

I'll check back over there in a while and see if you have them lined out

That would be a magnificent trophy feed bucket kill for some lucky dude!

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 03-05-2003 11:32: Message edited by: Deerslayer ]</font>

 

[Tom]

We've had this discussion before, "no matter how big" No matter how small the island, it counts fair chase. There's different definitions of fair chase, they change over time, they change over species, they are all part of sport hunting, not real hunting, just the sport of it, that's the history for them, as I understand it. It doesn't have to do with size, pen vs not pen, it has to do with how wild the animals are, and it has to do with whether they can hide, and it has to do with whether they can get away. That's the way I think about it. B&C, P&Y, SCI, TGR, and probably others I don't know about all have different definitions of fair chase, there is not just one. I'll go look at monster mulies but I doubt I'll stay much. There's to much time wasted on these things for me as it is. One economical high fence hunt to meet some people and you don't know what they are all like, but you have at least experienced it somewhere and decided based on that. Its not a high fence record book, whatever, you are talking about, its more types of hunting than either B&C or P&Y though. What book are you talking about?

Where have you seen a penned Kudo or Zebra in Texas? There are Kudo and Zebra here but I've not seen them in a pen. A pen to me is not a fenced area, no matter how big, its a small holding area for animals. Its not an area where you would do a hunt to me or to you. Its not the size, its the cover and ability to hide and to get away that is crucial to make it more of a hunt than a shoot for me. Even in open Rocky mountains, it turns into a shoot, during the hunt there. The shot is part of the hunt, its where you shoot. A whole bunch of good parts of a hunt, make the whole thing good.

Are you, DS, against, with your vote, all high fence hunts, or just will not do another, or don't care, or have to see the issue up for vote, or what?

I'd endorse a guy shooting his animal in a pen, if its legal, then butchering it, I don't want to force him to take it to a butcher or slaughter house. I don't want to shoot one that way, but its ok with me if someone else wants to. There might be something really strange to make me vote against it sometime, but I don't know what it would be. The idea is basically fine with me, better than the grocery store, as someone said earlier.

I looked at the 499 thread you sent me too, I don't remember if I'm registered there or not and didn't see that they had a way for me to find out. 499, wouldn't that be a work record elk? That must be why they want so much, $60,000, whew. There's no picture, he didn't say what kind of score he's talking about, gross, net, typical, non-typical, what system even. Its a bunch of BS, DS, you talk to them, I'm not too interested now. A picture would be neat, but it didn't sound like he has one.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 03-05-2003 12:47: Message edited by: Tom ]</font>

 

[Deerslayer]

Tom, the YO has Zebra, and Kudu, hell, you can whack a giraffe if you want. Do you like the idea of shooting an elephant, you might give them a call. A texas elephant killed in fair chase because his pen was a few thousand acres, and a side note, he was only there because he preferred the food water and cover that ranch offerd him.

I want keep arguing with ya Tom, I've made my point. So I'll just read what some others have to say on it.

To answer your question though. I would vote "NO" on any opportunity I have here in Colorado to do so concerning any fenced hunting of any kind. That is just me and what I will do given the chance. I don't think it is wrong for you to Pen hunt down there in Texas. I'm glad you have that right. I just don't want it here. I know a lot of folks enjoy that stuff, and good for them that they can. Where my problem comes in is when you start trying to sell your belief that it is the same or even resembles fair chase hunting of free ranging animals. Just call it what it is and I'm ok with it. But I don't give a rat's ass how big the pen is...1 acre or 10,000....it is still a pen.
If you don't like calling it a "pen hunt"...we could used canned hunt, fenced hunt, a farm, or whatever you choose. But when you buy an animal at a sale, unload his ass in a fenced are, no matter the size, you have quarantined him for the purpose of not letting him escape. He did not choose the area because of the "great food, cover and water" provided him nor the "great management"as you suggested in your earlier post. Of course, this is just my beleif, and it was so before last year in Texas, and I said it before and after that shoot. I still went, I had a good time, but it is what it is, no matter how you try to glorify it........just my 50-cents.

 

[Tom]

I'd hunt a zebra or kudo at the YO Ranch if I could afford it, but would rather go to Africa. I bet it would be the same price or cheaper and I could get more animals and have a better hunt.

You're making up schit with elephants. Get off of making up schit. If you want to talk real stuff fine, otherwise, blow your hot air all you want buddy. If your point is to tell me what you believe, I got it, if its to convince me you have good reasoning for your beliefs, forget it. I enjoyed it last year too, meeting people and the comradery there, it was great. It doesn't mean we have to agree on everything.