What's Wrong With Elk Farms

Well, I haven't read this whole thread, just saw where 'ol DS's cooking might be coming under fire! Yes, he spends lots of time cooking in camp... but I'll assure you this... it's early in the morning and late into the evening! No daylight hours are wasted over a stove.

We eat early enough to get to where we need to be by sun up and stay out late enough that we're finding camp in total darkness... and, to top all that off, the food is incredible!

I'd stack his file gumbo up against any in the free world! Pan fried elk tenderloins with mushroom gravy, greenbeans, and mashed potatoes to die for!

Take it from a flatlander that don't miss too many meals... the man can cook! His ability as a hunter goes without saying!
 
And here's more about money and economics regarding wildlife:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>While a few individuals may profit from this new wildlife economy, game ranching threatens a larger, more expansive economy based on value of public wildlife and public recreation. People who drive to a game farm to view penned elk contribute far less to a local economy than those who spend the time and money seeking wild, elusive elk. In the United States alone, people spend more than $60 million each year on recreation associated with public wildlife. Since wildlife belongs to the public, "surplus" animals are allocated by law rather than by the market, which prevents frivolous or excessive killing and places limits on the means of taking or observing wildlife. It also leads to a higher total economic return than commercial game ranches and hunting operations. Although our system of wildlife management is driven primarily by ecology rather than profit, wildlife is paying its way in North America.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
 
DS, I didn't mean a slam by it, I'm trying to get a view of Cajun hunters, they really like to cook at hunt camp, as far as I can tell. That's neat, no slam intended.

WH, How do I think game ranches fit into these 5 things?

Wildlife is owned in law and in fact by the public, with the private ownership of wildlife severely restricted.

No problem, an example here is the state owns the whitetail deer on a high fence place, they still control the game limits, the liscenses, etc. The landowner controls the access. The two systems of private ownership of land and of exotics and public animals owned by none of us or all of us is alive and working very well here and elsewhere.

Most markets in dead wildlife have been abolished, removing an enormous incentive to turn illegally killed wildlife into cash in hidden markets.

Thats good. Paperwork with private high fence places is easy to make sure those animals are not poached animals when processed. Its the tag system, isn't it?, we tag our animals, then everyone knows its pretty legal. If you want to tag the high fence animals too, good idea, go for it. Geiss says its a good system, right? Any tagged animal can't be sole etc., well tagged high fence ones could be, or it could be very restricted if abused, no problem.

Wildlife surplus is allocated by law, not by the pocketbook, social status or land ownership.

This doesn't seem clear to me. Like, I could buy a guaranteed tag for an elk, if I own land and live in Montana or if I pay lots of money and don't live in Montana. Its true elsewhere also. Its allocated by law, I see that, but by pocketbook, social status and land ownership also, big time, lots of places. That seems to be an erroneous statement or at least unclear because there is a lot of pocketbook and landownership involved in quality hunts and in land access. Remember the hunter Greenhorn guided this year, he paid $12,500 or something and got to see like 50 big bulls on private land. Geiss's statement is real weird here when you think about things like that. I think game ranches help reduce the pressure on public hunts. A private enterprising person can compete in the hunting market and provide a service to those who want it, then more people could get tags on public hunts that those who go to the private source don't take. There's some thoughts on it.

Wildlife can only be killed for cause such as for food, fur or protection of life and property by those carrying licenses, and

Wildlife is managed using the best available information, based on sound, scientific knowledge and research, with input from the public (often referred to as "the Roosevelt Doctrine")

Game ranches fit right in with this, the owners I know advance knowledge and management practices based on sound scientific knowledge and research, etc.

That's some response for you to consider.
smile.gif


Here's some more comments on the giraffe and the elephant and the rams as a high fence hunt.

When I was at the YO Ranch, they had a male and female giraffe for sale, $30,000 for the pair. I think the idea was to have some giraffes oun on hour back yard to view from the house and pool at the top of the hill. Kind of like looking out on the plains of Africa. If a person paid them, I suppose they would have let them shoot them as it is not against the law. They would not have liked it, I don't think though.

They don't have elephants as far as I know, but they may be able to ship you one in, if you talk to them and have lots of money. I'd rather go to Africa myself.

On the ram hunt DS keeps referring too above. Some people just want to go there and shoot the first nice thing they see with a big gun. Some people go there and hunt the place and try to find a big one that they like that doesn't cost too much and they are less likely to use a big gun. We had people that did it both ways last March, everybody hunted the way they wanted to hunt and everybody got what they wanted or didn't get anything but the fun of it all. It was like a hunt when I describe it that way. There were lots of animals there because of the system the owner has worked out over 25 years in this business. If you want a place with less animals and more hunting before you even see one, there are places like that too, they cost more. If you don't get what you want out of one of these places, its because you didn't work at finding what you wanted. Its like a hunt in that sense too, there's a different sort of work to get animals like you want on these type places.

Some of you guys say there is not a good game ranch for elk for you, that's fine, let someone else who thinks it is good for them go to the place. It won't hurt you. If no one thinks its good for them, if the place doesn't control disease, or escapes, the place will go out of business, that's the American way. The public wild elk won't be hurt, they are still there, up in the mountains doing just fine provided the ranches are run right. That should be the issue, what does it take to run them right?

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 03-07-2003 10:29: Message edited by: Tom ]</font>
 
Those of you that dont agree with game ranches,are you against all of these types of hunts, or just those in States with alot of public land?
It seems like in Texas this type of hunting works for them.
Is that because of the lack of public lands?
I have never been to Texas or on any game ranch hunts,so im only asking questions

wink.gif
to try to figure it out.
I have never viewed game ranch hunting in the same light as hunting public land where the animals can move from unit to unit.
I dont care is someone hunts them,but I see no reason that we would need them in States like Idaho.
I get the feeling its different depending on where ones live's?


Then again we have a canned hog hunt in shoshone Id. that I would like to go to ,LOL so I guess im just messed up.



( Would shooting a cat in your backyard be a canned hunt ?)
biggrin.gif
 
MuleDeer4Me

I am thinking of offering canned hunts for cats, as I know the outfitters who run the wild cats get pretty good money, and a canned hunt could only be that much better to sell.

My subdivision seems to have plenty of cats, so I was thinking of getting my black lab, and maybe the neighbor's Cocker Spaniel, and then running the cats in the Subdivision with my "pack".

I would try and make it sporting, perhaps even doing it over bait (Meow Mix), and with fences, swimming pools, and cross traffic, I think you might find it challenging.

Just a thought....
elkgrin.gif
 
I'm against it in any state, but mostly I'm against elk farms in states that have wild populations of elk. The way I see it, Texas is already so messed up that it can't be saved (or isn't worth saving.) It is true that Texas has very little public land, and landowners basically have control over all wildlife. I'm not sure why it's that way...I don't think it had to be that way, but it is and there's no changing it now. I think it's a shame they have exotics running all over where native wildlife could be living instead. But they seem to be in their own little world down there and I think we should just let them be. I know one thing...if I ever have the desire to hunt African wildlife, I sure won't be going to Texas to do it. I will never understand how anyone could get any satisfaction out of that. When I go hunting I want to hunt an animal that is in its natural habitat and is there by its choice.
 
I found another question with a repeat quote
of Geiss, I'll give my reaction:

"From the outset, legislatures granted some exceptions to these basic policies. For example, by passing a strict trespass act, Texas gave de facto control over wildlife to landowners, allowing allocation of wildlife by the market and denying many "shareholders" in wildlife access to their public resource." that's Geiss
-------------------------------------------
Here's the question:
"To tell you the truth, this is what sounds Communist to me. What do you think Tom?"

Every state has public land and private land, you may even own some land, and every state has different laws about what you can do and not do on the land.

Texas chose to be about 2-3% public land. Communism is where nobody owns anything, except the government. Private ownership is exactly not Communism. You think we deny many shareholders access to public
wildlife? Here's a challenge for you Washington Hunter, I bet I can take you on more hunts for more varieties of wildlife here than you can take me on in Washington? So, I think the system works well here for a lot of the shareholders, not just a few.

What kind of public hunt do you have for me in Washington? What is the cost? Any that I have to get drawn or some that I don't have to get drawn?

I'll start the challenge with the ram hunt we did:

$35 over the counter out of state liscense.
$180 hunt includes one of Corsican, Texas Dall, Haw.Black, Mouflon, New Zealand Mountain goat, Rambo (merino) ram, two nights with hunt camp bed (real rustic lodging) and 1.5 days hunting. Other animals available for anothe $180. All the aoudads, varmints, hogs, including bobcats and cougars that you can shoot. If you come during spring turkey season, its free, but the liscense is $100 more, still over the counter. What you got? You're in a state where there is more public land right? Less denial of public shareholders access, right?

MD4ME is right, I think too that it depends on where you live, how much you let the American capitalist system work, but control the abuse.
 
Tom, you can buy OTC tags for deer and elk. It would be $613.20 for both. Lots of public land to hunt, and private timber land that is open to the public at no charge. Major difference would be these are wild animals and unlike Texas, your success would not be a guarantee. In fact, far from it. For mule deer, at best your odds of success would be around 35%. For elk you're looking at about a 10% success rate. But at least if you killed an animal, you could take a picture and show that picture to your buddies and actually be proud of it.
 
In the thread "Define Hunting", many stated or implied the process or act of searching for an animal as being important. Is this the hurdle here, that some feel that part of the 'hunt' is lost with high fences?
 
Tom most of the species you mentioned are not native to Texas so they are not "public wildlife." (or if they are they shouldn't be)

I would not be interested in any hunting in Texas that was not for a native species. So I suppose that means if I went hunting in Texas I would be hunting whitetail deer. For whitetails, I would have no interest in hunting them anywhere that they have been manipulated by man to grow larger antlers and/or fenced in so they are not free to come and go as they like. Is there anyplace like that in Texas?
 
How about over the counter deer tags for $250 here, apply for one of many public hunts for $2, go for $50. These are free ranging and not guaranteed and the state record archery buck here, scoring about 240 is from one of them.

How about $10/day for wild hogs right now on a public 25,000 acre plus area with about 45-50% chance of success? This is free ranging.

How about a $100 antelope doe right now? Free ranging over the counter $35 liscense?

You got anything under a couple hundred?
 
Tom you can also hunt bear and cougar here with an OTC tag. The cost for you, in addition to your deer and elk tags, would be an extra $109. Your chance of killing a cougar is extremely low, of course. But if you come at the right time of the season I bet you wouldn't have much trouble getting a bear if you were willing to do a lot of hiking in the higher elevations, and a lot of glassing in areas where they are feeding on berries. Doesn't that sound like more fun and more of a challenge than some kind of tame, exotic, fenced-in goat or sheep in Texas?
 
WH, I got a bear last fall, I got a free ranging goat last March, it wasn't fenced in and it wasn't tame. It was a pretty big goat, as goats go. The elk is the most attractive thing you've mentioned so far and $600 isn't too bad for that. I'm not too interested right now though, I have plenty of hunting here. I don't remember, did you get an elk or a deer last year in Washington? Also, you can come here and hunt all the bobcats and cougars you want, no tags, all year, that means there's not too many of them though.

Its $135 total, $35 is to the state for the hunting liscense, $100 is to the landowner for access but its per doe. You could shoot 5 for $500 if you wanted. Nobody wanted to do that last April although it was near where we did the ram hunt in the high fence place. Moosie went after a buck though and got one, but it wasn't to big. The landowner has them free ranging. The trouble is they are blackbuck antelope does and you don't like the exotic part of that. They taste good though and they run and its year round hunting for them. They are smaller than a pronghorn.


These examples I made are to illustrate that there is economical free chase hunting of native and exotic game here all year despite all the commercialization and private land. I don't understand Geiss's worry about commercialization, it seems the USA system can make that work, to me, even with wildlife.

Exotic game is great too, I'm not restricting myself to native game. How long to we have to show its been here before you think its native? Like when white man got here, if it was here, then its native. Exotic game runs and hides here as good as anywhere. There is exotic game here that is extinct in its homeland, and it can be hunted. There's lots of pro sides to exotic game and I don't want to restrict myself to only native game like you seem to want to do.


1_pointer, I can remark on your question. Part of the hunt is lost if you just hunt for any old animal as a bunch of them are there usually. That just means you hunt for a good one, the way I look at it, you don't know how good a one you can find until you hunt there. Later.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 03-07-2003 14:15: Message edited by: Tom ]</font>
 
Those Texas doe antelope are a frickin rip-off.

A nonresident can kill two antelope does for a total of $130 (tags $60 each and a $10 conservation stamp) in Wyoming, add another $195 and you can take a buck home as well. Antlerless deer are also $60 each for NR hunters. For around $160, a NR can take a cow elk and the tag is a guarantee in most areas.

Lets see....how would I rather spend my $160...give it to a texas game farmer for a feral goat...or give it to Wyoming for a wild cow elk or two antelope or deer...HMMMMMMMM? Not even a debate as far as I'm concerned.

Texas hunting...taking the wild out of wildlife.
 
Tom how much would it cost a hunter to kill a large blackbuck?

I bet its more than the $195 you'd spend to hunt quality pronghorn in Wyoming.

Economical hunting in Texas is limited to a few feral hogs and blasting females of the various species. What a joke.
 
Buzz, what do you think of the wild hog hunt here? $35 liscense, $40 for public access, you got unlimited hogs and that public place I mentioned is open for 3 months to hunt them. There's probably some others if you want to hunt other than Jan.,Feb., and March, I know there is.

If you say they're not wild, I don't think you know what you're talking about. The Spanish dropped the first off here when they explored here, they've been living wild at least that long. They get hunted all year, that keeps them pretty wild.
 
Tom, For $135 I'd kill a couple of pronghorn does. Sounds like fun. How much is a buck? You sure these aren't fenced in?

If you wanted to hunt just for elk in this state it would cost $394. The $613 figure was for deer and elk.

Last year I killed a large-bodied but small-antlered 3 point blacktail with a bow. This was my first kill with a bow (my 2nd year of bow hunting.) I missed most of the early archery elk season in September because I was fighting fires. The late archery season I chased them around quite a bit, got into them most every day, but wasn't able to get close enough for a good shot. (40 yards is my limit) I'm hoping to get an elk in the early season this year, then I may give up the bow hunting and go back to rifle. Last year I also went to eastern Montana and killed a nice 15 inch antelope. That was a lot of fun and I hope to do that again soon (and it was only $200) I never do as much big game hunting as I would like, my dog has too much influence, and he prefers pheasant hunting
smile.gif
 
Buzz, read what I said, a $50 public hunt is where our state record archery whitetail is from, it scored about 240. Its a free application to hunt the place.

You're right a big blackbuck is more than $195. The going rate is like $1200 but its a guided hunt where they'll have them for sure. If you shop around, you can get them $500 free ranging, but your chances of having one there when you're there are cut a lot. That means you might make two or three trips or stay longer and end up higher, like the $1200 for a good place to start with. You don't have to get drawn.

My chances of drawing the pronghorn buck in Wyoming are not to good, that's not equal in the comparison of the antelope buck hunts.
 
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