Whats a hunter...

[MULE]

So this guy shoots a deer

At 750 yards, he has a rangefinder and a 2000 dollar rifle.

The guy with the old 30-06 says he ain't a hunter.

The guy with the 30-06 had to use stealth.

The guy with the compound bow tells Mr. 30-06 he ain't a pimple on a whores ass cuz he had to be within 50 yards.

Guy with the recurve laughs at Mr. Compound but is promptly slapped by Mr. Longbow

And somewhere....Thousands of miles away

Is a little sun hardened brown man.

He's out with basically sharp sticks to bring home a monkey or big lizard.

And he is laughing at us all

 

[cjcj]

Pretty good Mule! some hunting on differant level`s, it`s wherever you want to draw your line and take a stance, you respect my way and i`ll respect your`s!

 

[dgibson]

Buzz, I have to agree with you to a great extent. There are some places where shooting the first legal deer you see isn't a challenge at all. I guess it's all relative to where you're at.

As for the paying-for-access issue, you're right that it sucks and I don't like it any more than you do. Be glad that you live in a place where there's enough public land left to make your decision stick.

Troy Jones, great ideas; now you just need to explain what defines ethical, skilled, and moral in terms of an outdoorsman. Which brings us back to Moosie's original question.

 

[The Hedgehog]

I have a 300 Magnum that is easy to kill game at 500 yards with if they are standing still. I like taking it hunting. My compound bow is now grouping arrows at 110 yards under a foot almost every group. When I get sick of killing the type of animals I prefer to hunt, I'll buy a Herb Meland takedown longbow. I've been eyeing those for a little while. Unfortunately, I like killing every chance I get, and it may be a few years before I make that move. I admire hunters that limit themselves for that extra challenge, not caring if they risk an extra-hard earned opportunity. I'm not there yet, but hopefully will be someday before I die.

I agree with Buzz. I have paid trespass fees in the past and ironicly enough, have never killed a decent animal when doing that. Although I primarily hunt public lands, I do other things for landowners these days who let me hunt. I send them something in the mail after I hunt their place and/or help them on their ranch in the summer and offseason. It is easier (and cheaper) to pay somebody a couple hundred bucks for a trespass fee, but building a good relationship with a landowner goes farther and hopefully will result in hunting in the years to come, especially when my son is old enough to go.

 

[kiwi hunta]

500 yards, wish my eyes were young enough to see 500 yards

I did see a video clip of a guy shooting an elk 3 times with a 300 magnum at 30 yards

 

[1_pointer]

The longrange hunting/shooting (take your pick) of animals is contentious, but I don't get it. It's like any other aspect of hunting, there are those that put in the effort, as it's not easy to shoot a rifle accurately to 1000yards or a bow to 100yds, and obtain the equipment to do so. That is one thing I totally LOVE about hunting, you can do it in ways, within the law, that make YOU happy. Many of the dedicated longrange hunter/shooters are more disciplined and dedicated than the average Shmoe, it's just a different challege for them. The only way I see around the issue is to legislate against it's use, but from those that are speaking against it that would not settle too well. In the field it is up to US to do the moral, ethical thing, which is a very plastic notion.

I think the biggest problem is that most average Schmoe's don't take the time to think through these issues for themselves or just don't care. Either way I find that sad.

Greenhorn- Does Herb Meland make the Pronghorn brand of bows? If so there were a few guys (from Billings) in camp in Canada that had them and they were SWEET.

 

[Tom]

Mule's post is good, it lines out different types of hunters. Shooters, killers, and hunters was brought up by Troy. I know you spell shooters and killers differently than hunters. I know hunters shoot, I know hunters kill. I know not all shooters are hunters and I know not all killers are hunters.

I don't know where Troy is distinguishing between them. Are you saying a legally liscensed hunter, hunting animals they have a legal tag for, may not be a hunter? They may just be a shooter, they may just be a killer, what's the rest of the story there Troy?

Also, I don't pay $4500 for a buck hunt. If I was a millionaire, I might. I don't pay thousands for a guided hunt in Alaska either. If I was a millionaire, I likely would.

 

[Michaelr]

Well moosie here it goes........ Its a tough question to put into words.

hunter...
One who hunts wild animals either for sport or for food; a huntsman.

sportsmen...
One who pursues the sports of the field; one who hunts, fishes, etc.

ethics...
A set of principles of right conduct.
A theory or a system of moral values: An ethic of service is at war with a craving for gain.

ethics..
The study of the general nature of morals and of the specific moral choices to be made by a person.

ethics...
The rules or standards governing the conduct of a person or the members of a profession.

A hunter is all that, And so much more.
He has a set of morals/ethics instilled in him by those who were his teachers/mentors.

A hunter is somebody who has great appreciation even effection for the game he persues and is willing to sacrifice to preserve and protect it.

I know this has been posted before but I think it is enlightening.

The Five Stages Of A Sport Hunter
by Denny L. Vasquez, Outdoor Writer.

As with all things in life, a hunter's prospective of his sport changes as time goes by. According to the Hunter's Education manual used by the Texas Parks & Wildlife Department, there are Five Stages of a Hunter's life. They are the Shooter Stage, the Limiting Out stage, the Trophy stage, Method stage and the Sportsman stage.

As the sport of hunting itself changes through the years, so do the factors which are used to determine what "successful hunting" is. Add to this the changes that take place in each hunter's life and things can get a bit confusing. Some of the factors that can play a part in what kind of hunter we become are, a hunter's age, hunting companions, role models, personal ethics and years of hunting experience. All of these affect our ideas of "success." Where a hunter may fit into one of the five groups changes as he progresses in his hunting career. Where are you now? Where would you like to be?

Shooter Stage
A hunter that is in the Shooter Stage talks about satisfaction with hunting being closely tied to being able to "get in some shooting." Often the beginning duck hunter will relate he had an excellent day if he got in a lot of shooting. The beginning deer hunter will talk about the number of shooting opportunities. Missing game means little to hunters in this phase. A beginning hunter wants to pull the trigger and test the capability of his firearm. A hunter in this stage may be a dangerous hunting partner.

Limiting Out Stage
A hunter that is in the Limiting Out Stage still talks about satisfaction gained from shooting. But what seems more important is measuring success through the killing of game and the number of birds or animals shot. Limiting out, or filling a tag, is the absolute measure. Do not let your desire to limit out be stronger than the need for safe behavior at all times.

Trophy Stage
The satisfaction of a hunter in the Trophy stage is described in terms of selectivity of game. A duck hunter might take only greenheads. A deer hunter looks for one special deer. A hunter might travel far to find a real trophy animal. Shooting opportunity and skills become less important.

Method Stage
When a hunter has reached the Method Stage, he has accumulated all the special equipment that he could possibly need. Hunting has become one of the most important things in his life. Satisfaction comes from the method that enables the hunter to take game. Taking game is important, but second to how it is taken. This hunter will study long and hard how best to pick a blind site, lay out decoys, and call in waterfowl. A deer hunter will go one on one with a white-tailed deer, studying sign, tracking, and the life habits of the deer. Often, the hunter will handicap himself by hunting only with black powder firearms or bow and arrow. Bagging game, or limiting, still is understood as being a necessary part of the hunt during this phase.

Sportsman Stage
Finally, as a hunter ages and after many years of hunting, he tends to "mellow out." Satisfaction now can be found in the total hunting experience. Being in the field, enjoying the company of friends and family, and seeing nature outweigh the need for taking game.

Not all sport hunters go through all the stages, or go through them in that particular order. It is also possible for hunters who pursue several species of game to be in different stages with regard to each species. Some hunters feel that role models of good sportsmen, training, or reading books or magazines helped them pass more quickly through some stages.

I find that alot if not most never get past the trophy stage, and that is where alot of the disagreements like the thread that prompted this one, arise from.
I myself am somewhere between method and sportsmen, and see the comercialization of wildlife as one of the biggest threats to our sport.

Now here is a question for you moosie..

How much hunting are you going to do with your boys if a nice whitetail is going to cost 2000? per kid? Or should I ask, will your boys be able to hunt with their boys if we allow hunting to be commercialized?

It is Vital that the average joe is not priced out of hunting, once it becomes to expensive to include his kids and enlist them into our ranks the anti hunters will prevail.

 

[1_pointer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> He has a set of morals/ethics instilled in him by those who were his teachers/mentors.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Using this definition I see it as being wrong to ever accuse anyone or any type of hunting as being un-ethical/moral.

I have a question for you Mike. You bring up the point about the cost of hunting with kids if it is even more commercialized than it is now. What if you are one that can afford it now matter the cost? Why should that person care if the price goes up, they will be able to take their kid hunting. There are many things that the average Joe (mostly) can not afford, ie private schools, luxury cars, and anything else expensive. I just don't get why some expect rich people to be more alturistic than the average Joe.

PS-Don't take this wrong, it's just a question. I feel the commercialization of wildlife is not good for the future of hunting.

 

[Tom]

1_pointer, I was doing fine with what you were saying there about the rich. They can pay for a govenors tag, so they do. The money gets put to use, they get to hunt, I can't afford, its still hunting though. Then, why did you say commercialization of hunting will be bad for its future?

Public hunts will remain public. Commercial hunts will add to that, reduce the pressure on public hunts, as the rich, those on an economical high fence commercial hunt, etc. will not be in the competition for the public hunts. As these commercial people, some call hunters, some do not, will vote prohunting. If they have time, if they are healthy enough, they will do the public hunts also.

Commercialization also brings nonhunters into voting prohunting. Lots of places here sell deer corn, put up hunters in motels, sell them food, gas, etc. The little towns around here love it when hunting season comes, its their tourist season. The hunters go hunt out in the rural places and spend lots of money in those small towns out there. That commercialization is great for hunting, as I see it.

 

[cjcj]

Mikeair that was a perfect post, IMO it coverd it all!

 

[Nut]

I am attempting to teach and show my 3 sons the finer aspects of hunting and to make sure they abide by all laws. I also teach them that every style of hunting might not be for them. But they also must ascertain what the other style of hunting is and why it is in place. They can form their own opinions and the way they want to deal with it.
I guess that is the moral aspect for me.

The hunting in Texas is almost different from everywhere else because of the shortage of public lands to hunt. The leasing of land is a way of life there and I do not see it changing. It will soon be that way here also.

What is a person suppose to do? Take up knitting?

 

[Michaelr]

Pointer........
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I have a question for you Mike. You bring up the point about the cost of hunting with kids if it is even more commercialized than it is now. What if you are one that can afford it now matter the cost? Why should that person care if the price goes up, they will be able to take their kid hunting. There are many things that the average Joe (mostly) can not afford, ie private schools, luxury cars, and anything else expensive. I just don't get why some expect rich people to be more alturistic than the average Joe.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hunting has been one of the things the average joe has been doing in this country from the very start, It has become a family tradition rich with alot of heritage, folk lore, "stories" ect ect..
Thats why it is so important to keep it affordable for the average joe, and to make sure it is still something that you can teach to your kids.
can you think of better lessons learned than those learned while hunting?== nature, the cycle of life and death, appreciation for our planet, and it's many different critters, let alone the many personal values learned such as patience, respect, self confidence ect ect.

 

[Tom]

I went to a talk yesterday by Dr.James Kroll, they call him Dr.Deer a lot as he has done so much research and written several books about deer and hunting them also. His group at the university where he is, has satellite photos of habitat from the 70s to now. They were impressive when you see the habitat dissappear as he flips through them. More and more people, less and less habitat, turns into a major issue for animals and hunting. Those satellite pictures make that very clear.

A Wyoming outfitter there at the show, talked about the $400 increase in the drawing for an out of state elk tag there, would "cut out the wanna bes" and get the odds of being drawn up above 90% there. He said that's what they are predicting.

Hopefully, some other commercial operation, besides him, will work, maybe down here, for a more economical hunt for a bigger market of those with less money. I've seen sika (Asian elk) doe hunts here for $175 approx. pretty regularly, plus an over the counter $35 out of state liscense (soon to be $45 I think). No gambling in a draw, just set it up and bring your child to hunt.
Commercialization has Wal-marts as well as Marshal Fields, if it works well.

Texas has free public youth hunts, but some of them are hard to draw. They have a special youth weekend also, the youth can take the gun out before others. For $40 we get the map booklet for all the public hunting and many of the places in that book are youth only hunts, but accompanied by an adult. Nut, you would probably use that here if you were here. Maybe I should send you one of those books. If Ohio gets to where it is like here, they say 18% of the habitat is leased (families hunt that too though), then being familiar with that book from here, would help see ways that have been tried to protect family hunting heritage type activities.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Tom, you say "I've seen sika (Asian elk) doe hunts here for $175 approx. pretty regularly, plus an over the counter $35 out of state liscense (soon to be $45 I think). No gambling in a draw, just set it up and bring your child to hunt."

Wouldn't it also be an enjoyable experience for a child to have dad just take him down to the local Humane Society, pick up an old milk goat, take it to some local rancher's corral and lets him blow it away? I think that would be an about an equally teriffic way to initiate a kid up on hunting.

 

[BuzzH]

Tom, in wyoming, NR youth licenses are like 120 for a buck antelope, doe tags are $30 each for NR youth.

So, for 180, a NR youth can smack 2 does and a buck.

If I was 12 again and my Dad asked me whether I'd like to go to Texas and shoot one doe shika deer for 175 or go shoot 3 antelope in Wyoming for 5 dollars more...is there really a debate?

 

[Tom]

If you were 8 again, there's no debate either.

 

[Nut]

Well the 13 year old (TurkeyEye) chose Montana also.

 

[1_pointer]

Mike- I agree to a point. I will raise my kids by taking them hunting if that is something they want to do. However, I have the ability (as do all people) of choosing when I have kids. Since I want to take my kids hunting I will wait until I can afford to take them hunting until I have kids. If I can take them for $25 for a deer tag on public land I will. If I have to pay a $1000 trespass fee to take my kid hunting (I hope it never comes to that and I don't think it will) I will. That is why I support most all efforts of improving the land health of public lands. The healthier the public lands the better it is able to support wildlife that more people are able to enjoy.

I think different than many on this issue and abhor the fact we get money for having kids. We made the choice to have them, so we made the choice to support them in the way we see fit.

 

[dgibson]

1_p, I'll be thinking about what you said while I'm spending my $800 tax "prefund."