What does crowded mean when hunting out west

[Deleted member 28227]

Curious from the Montana folks as to what is perceived to be the reason for crowds increasing over the last few years?
If we look at purely hunter numbers, they have been relatively flat for 10 years, thus my guess is that hunters are either hunting different areas because of decreased game in their historical hunting districts (e.g., as would be the case in HD's hardest hit by wolf predation) thereby increasing pressure in other districts , or loss of access to private which has led to increased pressure on public.
Same question for the Colorado folks, who have experienced a net decrease in hunter numbers over the last 10 years, yet the perception is that hunting pressure is going up.
AZ and UT, on the other hand, have experienced a staggering increase of hunters over the same period, thus I can only imagine that things there are even worse in terms of pressure.

Thought I'd share some data below which I had posted a while back on a different thread which I thought was interesting,. Make of it what you will.
View attachment 115131

Couple things you have to be careful of with this data is "number of license hunters". For instance in CO is that the number of unique CID numbers that had purchases? Were those numbers big game licensees, were they just points, if you bought a deer and an elk tag were you counted once or twice? From 2009 to 2018 did USFS or the state of Colorado change how they counted hunters, etc. This isn't something you can know... but it's a reason to be a little skeptical of the data. CO had 208,529 elk hunters in 2009 and 223,547 in 2018 so a sizable increase.

Also those numbers aren't really comparable state to state... ie CO had 223,547 elk hunters in 2018 and then 294,319 license hunters? Not to mention bear tags, deer tags, waterfowl, etc etc. Meanwhile Arizona had 305,214 license hunters and had 25,679 elk licenses.

So 76% of CO hunters have elk tags while 8% of Arizona hunters do...19% or Utah 28% So basically you are comparing a boom in Az dove hunters to CO elk hunters...

Further:
CO: 294,319 total licenses 223,547 elk and 88,185 deer tags
ID: 286,947 total license 81,142 elk tags and 147,647 deer tags.

So assuming no one holds a deer and an elk license (which most do)

Big game hunters make up 79.7% of Idaho's license sales while they make up 105% of Colorado license sales?

Point being, not apples to apples, so this isn't a useful dataset to compare one state to another when talking about crowding. You need to look at

"yet the perception is that hunting pressure is going up"

1. Shifting baseline syndrome/what pressue was like when you started hunting in 2014 in Co then 2018 might seem more crowded.

2. Distribution of hunters via technology, have things like onx moved more inexperienced hunters into peoples "honey holes"

3. Net license sales don't tell the specifics of individual units eg, Unit 53 in Colorado 509 hunters in 2009 in 2018 it had 841 ~160% increase. This is coupled with the fact that people are going to complain about a unit being too crowded, they are going to keep their mouths shut if pressure decreases, so you might only be hearing from a vocal minority.

 

[stealthy_bowman]

Couple things you have to be careful of with this data is "number of license hunters". For instance in CO is that the number of unique CID numbers that had purchases? Were those numbers big game licensees, were they just points, if you bought a deer and an elk tag were you counted once or twice? From 2009 to 2018 did USFS or the state of Colorado change how they counted hunters, etc. This isn't something you can know... but it's a reason to be a little skeptical of the data. CO had 208,529 elk hunters in 2009 and 223,547 in 2018 so a sizable increase.

Also those numbers aren't really comparable state to state... ie CO had 223,547 elk hunters in 2018 and then 294,319 license hunters? Not to mention bear tags, deer tags, waterfowl, etc etc. Meanwhile Arizona had 305,214 license hunters and had 25,679 elk licenses.

So 76% of CO hunters have elk tags while 8% of Arizona hunters do...19% or Utah 28% So basically you are comparing a boom in Az dove hunters to CO elk hunters...

Further:
CO: 294,319 total licenses 223,547 elk and 88,185 deer tags
ID: 286,947 total license 81,142 elk tags and 147,647 deer tags.

So assuming no one holds a deer and an elk license (which most do)

Big game hunters make up 79.7% of Idaho's license sales while they make up 105% of Colorado license sales?

Point being, not apples to apples, so this isn't a useful dataset to compare one state to another when talking about crowding. You need to look at

"yet the perception is that hunting pressure is going up"

1. Shifting baseline syndrome/what pressue was like when you started hunting in 2014 in Co then 2018 might seem more crowded.

2. Distribution of hunters via technology, have things like onx moved more inexperienced hunters into peoples "honey holes"

3. Net license sales don't tell the specifics of individual units eg, Unit 53 in Colorado 509 hunters in 2009 in 2018 it had 841 ~160% increase. This is coupled with the fact that people are going to complain about a unit being too crowded, they are going to keep their mouths shut if pressure decreases, so you might only be hearing from a vocal minority.

According to the USFWS, those numbers reflect individual license holders. Permits, tags, stamps etc. are looked at separately and collectively and hence is a much bigger number since one person can hold multiple permits. Totally agree with all your points btw, the data is really just directional and as you peel back the onion layers, state by state complexities arise. Nevertheless, we get some idea here as to the actual number of individuals that have done some kind of hunting in each state and it gives some direction.
Thanks for your points 1-3, that's exactly the type of info I was looking for. I especially like the point about onX and have been contemplating the same. As much as I love it, I think it is very much a double edged sword to have the incredible capabilities that the services provides.

 

[vanish]

I think the West sometimes feels more crowded simply because how far one can see. Back in NY, I wouldn't even know if someone was hunting the 40 next door as I could only see 100 yards at best. When you can see 2 miles, its a lot easier to see all the hunters.

However, I have been in units that were downright crowded. In one spot I deer hunted, across a canyon at lunch time there were 47 vehicles that came down the hill during a 20 minute span. On one late elk hunt we could see 42 vehicles parked at different outcroppings, and it was several days into the season. On one front range deer hunt, I could count 22 hunters lined up along one canyon. One trailhead I hunted on the first day of muzzy season a couple years ago had 18 camps ... not vehicles but camps set up next to it!

I note these things and find new spots or seasons, but you don't always know until you've done it.

 

[88man]

Yeah thats why with all the crowding issues at the good spots you gotta go to the bad spots where know one hunts. Its like yogi said " no one goes there anymore the place is to crowded"

 

[Old man bob]

And groups want more hunter recruitment. I have allways said not needed. And the Population in Az .is about 1Million higher than what the facts from Google Say. .There is 5 Milllion alone in Phoenix.Now. and State wide Whoknows how many 100's of Thousands of Illegals. And they don't use hunting licenses.LOL. SAD...............BOB!

 

[elkmo]

A few things that guys from back east should think about when they come out west and are shocked by the apparent lack of hunters.

Western seasons are generally much longer than those of the eastern states. This spreads hunters out over a longer time and gives the appearance of less pressure. For instance Montana's rife season is over five weeks long. If the season you are use to hunting back east is only a week long you should multiply the number of hunters you see in Montana by five if you are comparing pressure between states.
Deer density on much of the public land out west can be as low as ten deer per square mile and and some times lower. This is much lower than most of the eastern states were densities can exceed 100 deer per square mile.
Running into two or three other hunters on public land out west may effectively be the same as encountering 50 to 100 hunters back east when you take into account the longer seasons and lower deer numbers.

agree deer densities are higher then the west but 100 per square mile is insane. They would have it browsed to nothing.....many are in the 15-30 per mile and thats a strong herd.

 

[antlerradar]

I see food plots on hunting shows that have close to 50 deer on them and they are no where close to a square mile. I am sure that states with lots of hard wood forest numbers are much lower but in places with agriculture and cover the numbers are much higher.

 

[thusby]

I think the West sometimes feels more crowded simply because how far one can see. Back in NY, I wouldn't even know if someone was hunting the 40 next door as I could only see 100 yards at best. When you can see 2 miles, its a lot easier to see all the hunters.

However, I have been in units that were downright crowded. In one spot I deer hunted, across a canyon at lunch time there were 47 vehicles that came down the hill during a 20 minute span. On one late elk hunt we could see 42 vehicles parked at different outcroppings, and it was several days into the season. On one front range deer hunt, I could count 22 hunters lined up along one canyon. One trailhead I hunted on the first day of muzzy season a couple years ago had 18 camps ... not vehicles but camps set up next to it!

I note these things and find new spots or seasons, but you don't always know until you've done it.

Colorado?

 

[LCH]

I see food plots on hunting shows that have close to 50 deer on them and they are no where close to a square mile. I am sure that states with lots of hard wood forest numbers are much lower but in places with agriculture and cover the numbers are much higher.

Whitetail TV hunting shows are not usually indicative of reality..

 

[vanish]

Colorado?

Yes

 

[thusby]

CO has to be the busiest place I have hunted in the west. It was pretty astonishing the number of hunters and vehicles.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

CO has to be the busiest place I have hunted in the west. It was pretty astonishing the number of hunters and vehicles.

Meh... I really think it depends on where/when/how you are hunting.

MT
The single largest grouping of hunters I have ever encountered was in the bridgers in MT... got to watch a guy fill all of his doe tags at once with an AR, efficient if very disturbing. Pumpkin patch does not even begin to describe it, I had hiked and camped and it was woken up during the night by multiple people setting up their tents within 20 yards of mine. I bailed on that basin hiked 5 miles in the other direction, saw no one found elk and killed my first bull.

On my first solo hunt, which was for a doe pronghorn I was hunting out of White Sulfur Springs. I had parked on a road before shooting light and stalked in on a group of beaded antelope. I was pretty nervous about long shots so I got within 150 yards, 2 min into shooting light I made a good shot and got one down. The group of antelope had moved 80 yards or so to my left and were milling around and two different groups of hunters pulled off the road and were taking 400 yard shots with me down range, although to the side. As a new hunter it was a terrifying experience, and I dragged my doe into a irrigation ditch and tried to process it with my head down.

Had a ton of hunts in eastern MT and in various other places where I didn't see another vehicle for days.

CO
The most hunters I've ever seen was behind my wife's families ranch, 40 trucks in one parking area.

My hunt in 2017 I ran into 10 or so other hunters over the course of 2 days, last year I bumped into maybe 2 hunters a day. Both in very popular OTC units.

This year I saw no hunters during my rifle hunt except for at the trail-head, again OTC archery elk hunt. Loads of non-consumptive users though... although the elk and deer didn't seem to be bugged by them in the least.

WY
I've only pronghorn hunted here, first year I hunted from the roads... terrifying. So many locals filling their freezers. The next couple times I hunted on foot/camped and never saw a person.

AK
Hunting Adak, surprise, we saw no one at all. We did a bear hunt in the Chugach immediately afterward, it happened to be the moose opener. That was the second most crowded experience I've had in hunting... felt a little madmax with everyone's DIY moose tractors. Once we crossed a river in pack rafts, we were again completely alone.

So yeah... in my experience you can have a cool back country experience in any unit in any western state, but you may have to adjust your plans. Sometimes walking in deep, or going up some super steep trail actually puts you into more people as everyone had the same idea, while hunting 1/2 a mile from a super popular trail gets you away from all hunting pressure as everyone thinks it's gonna suck.

 

[NEWHunter]

@wllm1313 you took “it depends” to a whole new level with that last post

 

[Robinhood21]

Thanks for the responses guys! The plan is to do a lot of glassing and make a move from there. I hunted a unit a few years back that was referred to as a “zoo” opening weekend, and I only ever saw probably 6 hunters over 5 days hunting. I guess it’s just a different meaning depending on who you talk to

Here's the thing... if a unit is being discussed on the internet, anybody who hunts that unit isn't going to say, "yeah, I see nobody out there, I have the mountain to myself, by the way, here's the bull/buck I shot while in that unit"

I pussyfooted around for too many years because everytime I thought I had found a unit I'd do some reasearch online and everything I read was "good luck getting away from crowds, all the elk get pushed out after the first couple of days, over crowded" I got discouraged and stopped researching which lead to me putting it off year after year. Best thing to do is pick a unit, go hunt, learn and have fun.

 

[Steelhead556]

Different ratio of aholes to acres (1:40 in east, 1:120 in west) , but the math uses a 3:1 correction to account for the mean acres covered west to east. My abbicus says its a wash, with exceptions on both sides.

 

[bushman13]

This is the most important factor to me. A whitetail simply runs around the corner, elk gtfo

Im not so sure you’re on the mark here, there are some eastern/mid west states that do only have week long rifle hunts but overall our seasons are waaay more generous on the amount of time. Archery hunting often goes from October-January straight with different shotgun/rifle/muzzleloader and primitive firearm seasons peppered throughout. Many eastern states have almost 4 months of straight hunting with 2+ of those months being firearm season.

Unfortunately elk don’t seem to have nearly the tolerance for any amount of intrusion. The amount of actual hunting pressure that would make elk go to a different county would only cause a whitetail to cross into the next 40 acre property.

 

[elkmo]

I see food plots on hunting shows that have close to 50 deer on them and they are no where close to a square mile. I am sure that states with lots of hard wood forest numbers are much lower but in places with agriculture and cover the numbers are much higher.

Top 10 Midwestern States Ranked by Deer Per Square Mile

Do You Hunt in Any of These States?

www.realtree.com

 

[2rocky]

When they spook the game towards me, not too crowded. When they spook it away or actually kill one....That's crowded...

 

[Dougfirtree]

Just to mix it up a bit: I can honestly say that where I hunt at home (public land in the northeast), I see WAY fewer hunters than any of the elk, or antelope units I've hunted out west. I have had many seasons around here, when over the span of our 8 weeks of firearm deer season, I've run into exactly zero other hunters.

 

[antlerradar]

agree deer densities are higher then the west but 100 per square mile is insane. They would have it browsed to nothing.....many are in the 15-30 per mile and thats a strong herd.

Clearly I was wrong. After doing more looking it appear that 100 deer per mile is more then twice the actual number. I am not one to exaggerate but clearly I did in this time. I not sure how that number got stuck in my mind. Likely in the past I saw an article that was describing an over populated population and forgot about the over populated part. Also likely influenced by shows that depict large numbers of deer in food plots and Ag fields. Even out west it is not unheard of to see as many as 100 deer in a river bottom alfalfa field.
I will stick by the concept that hunters form the east when assessing pressure need to adjust for a difference in season length and lower deer density.