What about NM outfitters screwing other nonres.

[schmalts]

Buzz, if i wanted to "draw out" every year and thats all that mattered i would be USO's freind for fighting AZ's nonres qouta now wouldnt I?? Not even close. I am so glad AZ has stood up to the traditions of hunting being a sport we all can afford to do, and have a fair opportunity to enjoy.
DS, if you think that the difference is so close between unguided and guided why dont they just drop the outfitter preference?? Who pushed for it in the first place?
Let me guess, DS you either work for an outfitter, are a guide, or have freinds or family that are. Am i right? maybe you use USO's or similare tag drawing service?

 

[Deerslayer]

Smaltz.....it's no secret on this board that I have guided for an Outfitter.....but that really has little to do with what we are discussing. I agree with Buzz that we should just lump all the nonres together...guided and unguided. But it's hard to complain when we get 10% for nonres unguided.....then you can look at the 12% guided as just "bonus" non res tags compared to the number most western states give nonres. I'm being totally truthful with you when I tell you you can turn that to your advantage if you just look at the numbers closely. You are getting way too hung up on the 10%-verses-12%-verses-78% thing. Concentrate less on how you are being screwed and more on how you can survey the draw odds and find opportunitys to be successful in the draws. I am 95% sure I will be hunting both goats and moose next year, and I have very few points to speak of.
The numbers can be misleading.......in many cases.....a nonres has better odds than a res. I won't spell it out for you, but I can tell you I am not bullshitting you either. And no...I don't know it all, and have had the priveledge to learn from the "master"

.but the knowledge is only the half of it......busting your ass and laying it all down on a hunt is something totally different.

Good luck to you on your draws....
DS

 

[schmalts]

DS, thanks for your honesty man, i was starting to wonder about you but its good to see this side of you. I tell ya I do give it my all when i go hunting. If i gotta put 60 lbs on my back and hike 5 miles in at 10K i will, and have. My knees are getting bad so i dont know how many years i got left to do this elk hunting stuff. The last time i hunted 16A we packed out a bull in one trip 2 guys, minus what he brought out with him to get me. We only did it to save the meat from 80 degree temps and we had to go to Alpine AZ that night to get my knee injected for the "heroic pack" The packs were so heavy we had to help each other get up but hey, we got the meat to Reserve with only a few teeny tiny maggots in one little bone opening

I will study the odds and always do. Fact is this is the first time i have seen these numbers published, is this the first year? Thanks for the lead..... Really, my little 2 year old son is what makes me so passionate for things like this. In my lifetime alone as a middle age guy i seen hunting change drasticly from just going on anyones land, to knocking on doors, and now to knowing someone or leasing. Its scary to think that he will only have one option to hunt and its $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-20-2003 18:47: Message edited by: schmalts ]</font>

 

[Bear Creek Adventures]

Good posts DS. I am suprised you are still so supportive of the outfitting industry after the first "outfitter" you worked for.

Schmalts, the revelation that just came to you is what I tried to explain to you in my very first post, congratulations on finally figuring it out. By the way, it would pay for you to listen to DS, he makes good sense.

I would caution you about one thing.... be careful what you ask for because you just might get it. What I am talking about is the idea to lump the 10% and the 12% non-resident quota together. Right now many outfitters don't get many hunters from the 10% pool, but can you imagine what would happen if every outfitter applied hunters into a 22% pool instead of the way it is set up now? USO would have a field day with that. I think your chances of drawing a non-resident, non-guided tag would fall through the floor.

In one of your posts above you said, "so that 2% turns into lets see, 20% more tags for the outfit guys, do a little figuring for the difference in the amount of applicant of both draws and i bet the 2% turns into more like 50-60% better drawing odds all said and done in most units."

I just have one question.... what in the hell are you talking about?? Don't try to complicate the issue about the current quota. It is 10%, 12% and 78% for each unit statewide, period. That is what the law states. The only exception to this is if the non-resident pools in a particular unit do not get filled, then the remaining permits return to resident hunters who have applied into that unit. It is very simple.

The other thing I do not understand is that you are bad mouthing USO for filing the lawsuit in Arizona which would get rid of a non-resident quota and therefore non-residents would have a much better chance of drawing a tag in that state. Is that not exactly what you would like to see happen in NM? Am I missing something?

Again, regarding this issue, outfitters should be your ally, not your enemy.

 

[schmalts]

bear creek, yea it gets hard to get the point across, when trying to talk about qouta percentage and draw odds in the same paragraph, things get hard to convey and i guess i didnt do so well doing so for ya, i type way to fast and then always need to go back and edit shit afterwards because it seems even when i proof read my stuff it still gets through jagged up.
I am not so sure if lumpimg all nonres together is such a bad thing just because of the fact why should they not be?? Whats the whole guided qouta for then anyway?
As far as AZ, i have mixed emotions on that. Dont know what to think so i am not going to comment. I just worry if he gets the nonres cap dropped he will go for an outfitter preference there next. AZ costs old GT money to get clients in his draw service because of the bonus point costs. Now the bonus point cost is a whole different ball of wax, not too happy with that,could start a whole new arguement on that one

but i stirred up enough for one topic, or should we bring wolves into this one too for ithica LOL

I hope you guys can at least see why i am so passionate for hunting rights for my son and that i really mean good, not greed for myself or anyone else. The whole AZ thing is a subject i wont touch. Yes i would love to hunt there, and maybe with my 5 points i will draw someday but i realize that the elk numbers are small, and hunters in the state are many so i really cant answer your question one way or the other.

Whats your opinion? or do we quit while we are still typing to eachother?
Hell, maybe we will cross paths some year if we beat all odds and both draw in the same unit.

 

[Deerslayer]

Eric!hahahhahayeah, I guess I entered into the guiding business through the wrong porthole or something!

.....but I survived it and am a better man for it!

........besides.....I can honestly say I learned schit and saw shcit I probably could not have anywhere else in the world....

Schmalts........passion is great, but when you channel your anger at these issues, you need to have it pointed in the right direction. I really think the outfitter industry is not our whipping boy here. Now those pesky landowners down there.....you know, the ones that wanna shoot the shit out of a few hundred elk and just leave 'em to rot...all to pressure the DOW to give then landowner tags they can use to further rape our sport....yeah, that kinda of extortion should receive some attention. But I won't go there...I'm feeling too good today.

Hey, you speak of having hunting Unit 16 once before, but stated you have never drawn a tag, and stated your dis-favor of landowner tags......so I am curious, ...how did you pull that off? Were you once a res?
DS

 

[schmalts]

Long story short, we applied as a group, one guy had a problem with the check he sent in. Law (or rules, whatever)states that even if a check bounces they still put you in the draw and give you time to proove bank error. in a case it was not bank error only the guy who bounces a check is sopposed to get booted.
Well,i went to check the internet for results of the draw and we all got the boot for lack of funds on the rejection code! I made some calls , pretty pissed of course sinse i just sold my house and hadnt moved yet ,i had like 50K in the account from that so i know there was an error on thier part.
Anyway for some reason they messed up and didnt even put us in the draw!!! not at all!!
So i got the head honcho on the line and said listen, you guys #@)(*%* up so what are you going to do to make it right? After argueing the situation for a month, he gave us our second choice on the applications we put in for. so only 2 of went because the other guy did bounce a check.
That checkbouncer will never be on any of my apps again thats for sure, some states will drop all apps for one error on one guys part.
Pretty interesting .. isnt it?
So, actually in 4 years i never drew a NM elk tag...... the tag i got wasnt drawn

 

[DonMc]

Smaltz......I won't be dealing with no pesky landowners...now if you want to vent your rage somewhere.....there's you a just target...not the outfitters. The outfitters in New Mexico will battle for you even though you are here slamming them.......ya see, they hope you do draw. Then hope you realize you are in over your head and go to them for help either guiding or a drop camp.
Outfitters make money when non-res draw. They get revenue from the unguided pool as well......both from those that decide lasy minute to be guided, and also those that would like to have a drop camp set or elk hauled out. You can try to paint them the enemy all you want.....but you need to lay off the sauce and get a grip on reality for a second and realize which side your bread is buttered on.

And as far as me being upset or this thread getting to me.......hahhahaha, I haven't laughed so hard in a while. I am taking this in humor, because I honestly think you are joking....just pulling shit on us for kicks.......because no one could really be that blinded to the numbers and the way things work.

....and I think there are some damn fine lawyers around Encampment, Wyoming....word on the street is a many a lawsuit originated there for the damdest of reasons!

 

[Oak]

Surely this is a record.

 

[Sytes]

I thought the 2013 thread returned to life was pretty epic... though add a decade to that....

Wow!

 

[MTGomer]

Would be interesting to hear all these guys’ thoughts 17 years later

 

[hank4elk]

I still think outfitter pool is welfare BS....20+yrs later