What about crossbows in Montana's archery season?

[npaden]

I actually don't really have much an opinion on crossbows and do think that with the current 6 week archery season in Montana it could be a mistake to allow them, I just got steamed when StraightArrow dismissed other folks opinions simply because they didn't live in Montana.

Each legislative season on a lot of forums, nonresidents are asked to step up to the plate and send in letters, call, email, donate money, etc. to help fight some of the more over the top type regulations and laws that get proposed each year in one state or the other. Maine bear hunting, California bear hunting, Montana trapping, etc. I do my best to contribute to these and other conservation causes.

Then when there is an issue that some nonresidents might actually feel would benefit them for one reason or another we are told that it is the state's wildlife and we aren't a resident of that state and our opinion doesn't matter. These guys were just giving their opinion right or wrong, they don't need to be ridiculed for it.

As a nonresident in pretty much every state that I hunt and apply for tags, I feel like a whipped dog the way things have been going in several states lately and it seems to be continuing in that direction.

 

[sbhooper]

There is a huge difference between states that have little public land or OTC hunting opportunity and those that do. In a state where there is a lot of public land and liberal general archery or muzzleloader seasons each advancement in technology is a step toward loosing hunting days. Something has to give!

In a state that has very limited tags with high success rate already I could see where it wouldn't make much difference.

You are completely wrong. Nebraska has very liberal tags and it has not made a difference.

In your argument about western land, explain why Wyoming has always allowed crossbows and has no problem.

Hunters have to quit bashing each other and just take advantage of what is allowed. Crossbows will make no difference in the kill rate in Montana or anywhere else. Live with it and progress! Like I said before, primitive is gone forever. Compound bows and mz scopes ended that fallacy.

 

[Joe Hulburt]

You are completely wrong. Nebraska has very liberal tags and it has not made a difference.

In your argument about western land, explain why Wyoming has always allowed crossbows and has no problem.

Hunters have to quit bashing each other and just take advantage of what is allowed. Crossbows will make no difference in the kill rate in Montana or anywhere else. Live with it and progress! Like I said before, primitive is gone forever. Compound bows and mz scopes ended that fallacy.

I have to admit I know little about hunting in Nebraska but I would think that comparing it to some of the western states is like apples and oranges. Is the majority of the habitat public land? Do you have a lot of high quality elk hunting that people are wanting to travel from everywhere to hunt? All I know about Wyoming is that the one time I spent time in elk country during archery season I saw more rigs than I have ever seen in my life. This in a state that has a tiny population of residents. You will have a hard time convincing me it hasn't hurt the quality of their hunts. Do you know of a lot of areas that are public land and general tags without an overcrowding problem?

I guarantee you that in Oregon if crossbows and high tech muzzleloaders (they kind of go hand in hand) were legalized our primitive seasons would be cut back even further. We have already lost a lot of general seasons due to the increase in harvest resulting from super high tech compound bows (which I shoot) but they have always been legal so it was kind of inevitable. There are currently no sportsman's groups in favor of allowing crossbows at any level. For whatever reason we (as a whole) see things differently on that issue.

I don't see anybody bashing anybody and I can't disagree more that we should just take advantage of what is allowed! We as hunters are the advocates for the resource and if some selfish greedy entity want's to push something off on us so they can make a buck it's alright to speak up. I firmly believe that crossbows degrade the bowhunting world and I will never just roll over and say it's all cool. It's a free country.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

JH---I would really have to disagree with you on the degrading statement you made regarding crossbows. How is that any more degrading than when the compound bow was invented and pretty well replaced the recurve? How about when the inline ML came into being and is now designed to shoot hundreds of yards compared to the old flintlocks? We will never go back to spears and hunting in a loincloth, so just about anything that can be mentioned that we have progressed to through the ages IMHO has degraded our sport one way or the other if we use that kind of thinking. That's just my opinion like you have yours.

 

[Big Fin]

Hunters have to quit bashing each other and just take advantage of what is allowed.

I think that is why many feel this bill is unnecessary. Those promoting the changes bash any hunters who prefer to keep things as they currently are, which is to not have crossbows in Montana. The promoters of the idea are not willing to take advantage of "what is allowed."

Using the Montana example, "what is allowed" for crossbows is five weeks of regular season and in many areas, another six weeks in the areas of weapons controlled seasons. That's a total of eleven weeks. Seems that a lot "is allowed" in that time frame.

I think most people fine with them being allowed in other states. If that is what Wyoming, the example cited, wants, then great for them. Time and again, Montana guys have told the legislature that they don't want crossbows during the archery season.

I don't care that they chase deer with dogs in SC, or if they don't. I don't care that they allow bear baiting in many states, or if they don't. I don't care if they allow ....... If that is what turns the crank of hunters in those states, then good for them. I'll either take it or leave it.

Maybe this resistance in MT makes those against the idea a bunch of old codgers. Maybe they are making rationalizations as to why they don't want them. If so, it doesn't really matter if their reasons hold water, or not. They show up in force at the legislature and testify that they don't want Montana laws tinkered with, whether it be crossbows, or whatever. They want things to stay the same as they are in Montana.

About eight years ago, a guy representing the muzzleloader industry (Toby Bridges) showed up and wanted to cut time off our five week rifle season and time off our six week archery season to make a special muzzy season. He got his teeth handed to him. Montanans are very happy with "what is allowed" and they usually reject any changes. Whether right or wrong, that is how it has always played out.

This idea comes up every legislative session and it ends up in the same result - the bill dies. It usually goes like this. Two industry guys get up and provide explanation of why Montana is so far behind the times and why all these changes will save us from ourselves. Followed by a hundred or so MT archers and their organizations who testify that they don't want this, or the other changes.

Not sure why it bothers some people if Wyoming or some other state allows them in archery season. It doesn't bother me in the least.

Not sure why it bothers some people that Montanans don't want crossbows. It is merely a preference of how they want their hunting seasons to remain. Whether or not their reasons for wanting season kept the same are valid, whether or not supported by evidence, or whatever.

All the arguing in the world is not going to change the minds of either side. Why a dipwad legislator would bring this up for the umpteenth time is beyond me. Nothing positive comes of it.

Time for this thread to drift off to oblivion. even if it needs me to help it get started on the path to oblivion.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

The Boss has spoken--Good night all and may everyone have a peaceful rest!!!!

 

[shoots-straight]

I'm afraid you might be the one who has been drinking. I never mentioned you had said anything to me previously. I just pointed out that you flat out told nonresidents that you didn't respect anything they had to say on the matter. I'm a nonresident so I why would I waste my time telling you my opinion on the topic? You obviously don't want to hear it and you surely don't want me to contact any Montana state legislators about it.

You've clearly stated that this is YOUR thread on a topic in YOUR state. Who cares if some of the guys posting actually hunt in that state and pay 4,000% more for their licenses than you do.

For the record! Show me on what post where I said, or eluded those things you mention. I welcome opinions for wide range of reasons even if those are wrong headed. It's like a dress rehearsal.

 

[BuzzH]

Shoots-straight,

Heres my opinion...to add to any arguments you may want to make to the uninformed legislature.

I think the intent of archery seasons is not being discussed fairly.

It was never intended to be a season about getting everyone out in the field. It wasn't about getting more interest by allowing crossguns, it wasn't about making things EASIER.

The intent was to give those that wanted more challenge a season where they didn't have to compete with crossguns, muzzleloaders, and centerfire rifles

I'm sick to death of people with every excuse in the book for why they should be allowed to hunt during archery season with a crossgun.

If you cant pull a bow because you have a bum shoulder, only one arm, too weak, too fat, whatever...tough chit. Pick up a rifle and enjoy the 5 weeks of general season.

This constant lowering the bar to accommodate everyone, in a season never intended to be for everyone, is crap.

 

[npaden]

For the record! Show me on what post where I said, or eluded those things you mention. I welcome opinions for wide range of reasons even if those are wrong headed. It's like a dress rehearsal.

If you hunt in Montana, you follow the rules of Montanans. I didn't make that up ... it's just the way it is. The issue expressed in this thread is a state issue having to do with the upcoming Montana legislative session. You may opine about it, but don't expect the same respect given to Montana folks registered to vote here.

Have you been drinking? I never said anything to you until this last post.

Top gun, I'm the OP and as such have certain rights to keep you on Topic so my thread doesn't get hijacked. Some forums give the OP the right for deleting any posts on their threads.

Emphasis added in bold.

 

[Elkmagnet]

I'm positive I would have killed twice as many elk in my life time if I was packing a crossbow. My first 10 yrs it seemed every time I had one come in I would screw up when to draw and therefore not release an arrow. It still seems to happen to me about once a year.
When it comes to calling an ELK into bow range I don't see how anybody could claim that there won't be a higher harvest rate and therefore opportunity would have to be limited to compensate. Everyone that I know who has spent a considerable amount of time archery hunting ELK seems to agree with me. There's just no free lunch!

Idaho allows the use of crossbows by disabled hunters and I'm all for that otherwise use them during the any weapons season, why not?

 

[Straight Arrow]

You may opine about it, but don't expect the same respect given to Montana folks registered to vote here.

npaden, if I called your Texas legislative representative to offer an opinion regarding a hunting issue being considered in Texas, would you seriously consider my input to carry the same weight as yours?

My point was never for you or Topgun to "butt out". It was to express that this thread is about a Montana hunting issue and I truly hope that my legislative representative would give more sway to my hunting opinion, than to opinions coming in from Yooperville or Buddy Holly's home town in other states.

 

[npaden]

As BigFin pointed out, legislators are aware of where the money comes from and where it is going. That is right up there with vote counts.

If you contributed 4,000% more funding to something that was being considered in Texas than a resident was contributing, I would expect that legislator to consider your opinion at least equal to mine.

The nice thing is that the Texas legislature typically doesn't meddle in the Texas Parks and Wildlife regulations so hopefully we won't have to find out.

 

[1_pointer]

I'm positive I would have killed twice as many elk in my life time if I was packing a crossbow. My first 10 yrs it seemed every time I had one come in I would screw up when to draw and therefore not release an arrow. It still seems to happen to me about once a year.
When it comes to calling an ELK into bow range I don't see how anybody could claim that there won't be a higher harvest rate and therefore opportunity would have to be limited to compensate. Everyone that I know who has spent a considerable amount of time archery hunting ELK seems to agree with me. There's just no free lunch!

Idaho allows the use of crossbows by disabled hunters and I'm all for that otherwise use them during the any weapons season, why not?

Not so fast. If there is something made for hunting that is more awkward to tote around the woods than a crossbow (granted the one I used is super modern) I've not found it. Likewise, I doubt I'd carry one too far with it cocked. Hunting out of stand or blind, I think they can be made to work, but packing one on a run and gun type hunt, give me a vertical bow anyday.

 

[JMG]

As stated earlier in the thread . . . . "We already allow crossbows for five weeks of the general season and also in all of the extended seasons and weapon restricted seasons" and "Cross bows in Montana. A good first step to a shorter archery season".

I feel the same way BuzzH stated,

It was never intended to be a season about getting everyone out in the field. It wasn't about getting more interest by allowing crossguns, it wasn't about making things EASIER.

The intent was to give those that wanted more challenge a season where they didn't have to compete with crossguns, muzzleloaders, and centerfire rifles

I'm sick to death of people with every excuse in the book for why they should be allowed to hunt during archery season with a crossgun.

If you cant pull a bow because you have a bum shoulder, only one arm, too weak, too fat, whatever...tough chit. Pick up a rifle and enjoy the 5 weeks of general season.

The Montana Bowhunters Association (MBA) played a major role in working with the Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks to allow physically diabled bowhunters (certified by FWP) to modify current archery equipment. A person who is not capable of drawing a bow and IS disabled can apply for a Permit to Modify Archery Equipment (PTMAE). The MBA has worked with a several folks to modify their equipment and in doing so, allowed them to archery hunt. So, there is no reason for someone claiming they are not physically able to bowhunt to think they need a crossbow. The process already exists and as BuzzH put it "pick up a rifle and enjoy the 5 weeks of general season".

Through my involement with the MBA, one thing to seriously consider is that bowhunting was intended to be a primative sport. It wasn't suppose to evolve into making it easier to harvest animals. It was never intended as a tool to help manage the wild game population. Once you cross this "line" the "powers that be" will start placing more regulations/restrictions to protect the species and in doing so, we limit ourselves with shorter seasons or no seasons at all. So, careful what you wish for.

So, NO, I don't support crossbows.

 

[BuzzH]

As BigFin pointed out, legislators are aware of where the money comes from and where it is going. That is right up there with vote counts.

If you contributed 4,000% more funding to something that was being considered in Texas than a resident was contributing, I would expect that legislator to consider your opinion at least equal to mine.

The nice thing is that the Texas legislature typically doesn't meddle in the Texas Parks and Wildlife regulations so hopefully we won't have to find out.

4,000%????...and you wonder why NR's are told to keep their thoughts to themselves...good grief.

 

[roadhunter]

Gaybows?

Yep. This thread is a replay of the last big crossbow thread where you spread your homophobic slurs. I see you have learned nothing about how to act since then since you repeat the same immature behavior that derailed the last thread. Nice work representing the hunting community of Montana. I'm sure they love reading your comments. IMO it's no different than posting racists comments. I'm really surprised Fin allows you to do this as I can't think of any forums I spend time on where comments like this are allowed. Being anti gay is not cool, even in Montana. Time to grow up.

It's obvious that some Montanans dont' want new archery technology to be used (crossbows, lighted knocks, bow mounted cameras, etc..) The ironic part is many of these people who are against crossbows hunt with an electric rangefinder, ballistic turrets, low BC bullets, etc..

The funny part in this whole deal is the scare tactics used by the anti crossbow people.

1. The season will be shortened. Well this has not happened in states where crossbows are legal and if states like Wyoming can allow crossbow hunting during archery season without having to shorten the season there is no reason to think Montana would have to shorten its' season. Just a scare tactic that is not based on any actual data that shows states who allow crossbows end up shortening the seasons. Myth busted.

2. It is so easy to kill things with a crossbow that if they were legalized during archery season the harvest would go up to a point where the season will be shortened. Unfortunately they never give any examples of this happening in other states and Wyoming has not had to make drastic changes to its' season structure because of crossbows. Myth busted.

So basically this thread is just a replay of the last discussion. A group of Montanans making up stories about how terrible crossbows and lighted knocks are for hunting and a group of non residents who point tout that allowing crossbows has not hurt other states or shortened seasons like Montanans are claiming will happen.

Doesn't take a genius to see that it's just a matter of time until crossbows are legal during archery season. Obviously this is going to severely upset some folks in MT but in reality I dont' think it will be the end of the world like they are predicting.

Thanks for the entertainment. I dont' stop by here much since this has turned into an anti hunting forum (this thread is a perfect example) but I do enjoy the laughs. But it does make me sad to think that people on this site are the ones who actually help make decisions about the future of hunting when I see how immature they act towards other hunters. Anytime you have someone like Npaden getting jumped on there is a huge problem as he is about as nice a guy as you will ever meet. Folks like Shoots Straight or Buzz like to make petty smart ass comments to good people like NPaden thinking that it accomplishes something while they thump their chest. It doesn't' accomplish anything. In reality it is just another example of the anti hunting mentality on this site that has driven a wedge in the hunting community by spreading hate for everything like crossbows, lighted knocks, hound hunting, 4 wheelers, African hunting, Hunting TV shows, muzzleloaders, etc.. At any given moment there is usually at least 2-3 anti hunter threads on this site.

Just because someone in another state hunts differently than you do does not make you any better/worse than them.

 

[mtmiller]

Not so fast. If there is something made for hunting that is more awkward to tote around the woods than a crossbow (granted the one I used is super modern) I've not found it. Likewise, I doubt I'd carry one too far with it cocked. Hunting out of stand or blind, I think they can be made to work, but packing one on a run and gun type hunt, give me a vertical bow anyday.

Rookie.

 

[BuzzH]

Roadhunter,

You seem pretty selective on the exaggerations and outright lies you're willing to tolerate...

Name a state where NR's contribute 4,000% more toward hunting/willdlife than R's and I'll apologize to Npaden and his outlandish "facts".

 

[Ben Lamb]

There are 119 bills related to fish and wildlife, another 50 or more related to public lands. Some of them would radically attack the public trust doctrine, eliminate hunter opportunity, steal license dollars, eliminate public lands and turn wildlife into livestock -

and this is what gets 3 pages of debate.

wow.

 

[LCH]

4,000%????...and you wonder why NR's are told to keep their thoughts to themselves...good grief.

It is true on the tag cost..

Just sayin'..