Welfare ranchers don`t like Wyoming`s Wolf Plan

[cmiddleton]

and so is your job buzz a subsidized joke. at least the ranchers work for a living not just flap their lips. face it you work on what you think is fact none has been proven to fact.
we could have saved millions by not bringing them back now thats a fact.

 

[BigHornRam]

Chambero,

Now you see why Nemont has smartly decided to walk away from this debate.....common sense talk is not absorbed by the zealots on either side of the debate. You make good sense and points to the 80% in the middle.

Our politicians on both sides of the isle have made policy that gives incentive after incentive for our food producers to overproduce. Overproduction leads to a cheap and plentiful food supply for all Americans. Well fed citizens tend to be more productive and happy then under fed citizens. All the great empires over history have come to an end due to FOOD shortage to its citizens issues. Those are FACTS.

Another fact is BOTH Middleton and Buzz compromised and voted for Freudenthal. Buzz, you knew his position on this issue prior to the election. He is doing exactly what he campaigned on......if you don't like it, you shouldn't have voted for him. Also Wyoming's plan is not interfering with delisting in Idaho, and Montana anymore...that's another fact. Another fact is USFWS bailed on Wyomings plan at the last minute. Now the FWS wants to compromise. Freudenthal is in the driver seat on this one, and is going to negotiate what's in all of Wyomings best interest, not just your interests. But then again you did vote for Freudenthal knowing full well his position on this.

So how come you don't want to make that bet with me Buzz? Because you know deep down Wyoming will be hunting wolves before Montana? Take the bet Buzz!

 

[BuzzH]

BHR,

Wolves would have been delisted 2-3 years ago if WY would have come up with an acceptable plan.

Are wolves delisted yet in MT and ID? Thats what I thought.

As to voting for Freudenthal...you think the reason I wouldnt vote for him is something as trivial as wolves? Not a chance.

I'm just stating the facts on why we're at the point we are with the wolf reintroduction. WY and its welfare ranchers are to blame.

I'll make the bet with you on WY not being the first to have a SPORT hunting season. Being able to smoke up a wolf out of the recovery area without a license is not a season.

So, under the definition of licensed sport hunting...I'll win that second case of beer...even though you'll welch out like you did on the first bet. MT or ID will have the first licensed sport hunting season on wolves.

 

[chambero]

Buzz:

Are you saying ranchers in Wyoming do have the right to shoot a wolf that is caught in the act of trying to kill livestock? I was not aware that they could.

Forgive me, but I must snicker a little when you argue about public comments on an EIS being the dominant, valid reason to reintroduce wolves. I don't actually think it was as bad an idea as it's made out to be AS LONG AS ranchers can defend their livestock. The vast majority of comments you get are at best from ignorant people that don't even read what is written in the document they are commenting on. At worst the comments are from idiots. You can't consider public comments to be representative of general consensus - just the radicals on both sides.

I recently put together an EA to describe an effort to remove feral horses (not wild per a court ruling)from a military installation. The horses were getting horribly injured from military training, had documented equine infectious anemia, and were severely hampering erosion control efforts. We got about 1500 comments from folks who were worked into a frenzy by mass e-mail message an opponent sent out. Needless to say the horses are still there right now.

Besides, one of the basic principles of our government system is that the majority can't stomp the rights of the few.

My point on subsidies for agriculture is that row cropping receives far more subsidies than any cattle rancher - including those grazing public land. There are plenty of data to back that fact up.

Public land grazing just needs to be managed a lot better. The science is there if it would just be implemented. In droughts you graze fewer cattle - that's how it is done on private land. Ranching in the interior west has a very long heritage and its not going to go away completely. Period. 2% may not sound like much, but its a huge deal to those families that depend on that 2%. I'd rather them stay in business with grazing leases too cheap on public land than cattle ranching to eventually go the way that corporate farming has. Cattle prices (as well as all agricultural products) are affected by many more variables than simple supply and demand. Its complicated enough that I don't pretend to understand it.

It is very easy to argue that our agricultural system in the U.S. is full of ridiculous decisions. What state produces the most cotton? Arizona - which is a true desert the last time I checked. Trying to graze a few cows on arid land isn't nearly as far from "natural" as massive irrigation projects.

We aren't perfect, but we literally have figured out how to feed most of the world. We have time to worry about things like saving the environment, reintroducing wolves, same-sex marriages, and a whole littany of social issues because we aren't worrying about where the next meal is coming from. You could let agricultural prices be determined on pure supply and demand allright, but a lot of us would be back to living off beans and cornbread instead of steak.

We forget the history of why our system developed as it has. It hasn't been so long ago that this country received massive numbers of immigrants fleeing starvation. It's easy for a lot of people to sit in a city or office and criticize agriculture with a full belly. A lot of our grandparents remember full well how life used to be and how basic essentials are taken for granted now. From my observations, things like urban sprawl and heavy development and invasive species (which I grant is sometimes aided by overgrazing) is a much bigger threat to public lands than agriculture or oil and gas development.

 

[IDHunters]

Nice posts chambero. Well said all around.

 

[BigHornRam]

Buzz,

If everything goes off flawlessly (how often does that happen?) MT could have a wolf hunt in 2 years. I can't see Idaho having one any sooner then that. So it appears to me based on your unwillingness to take my bet, that you believe Wyoming WILL get a dual classification status for the wolf either through negotiation or law suit with the FWS in less time then that. I would have to agree with you on that. It was a sucker bet. I don't know how long it will take Wyoming to come up with a "sport" hunting season once they too get their wolves delisted but would guess they would move fairly quickly on it when they do.

So you don't consider hunting coyotes in Wyoming a "sport" hunting season? Why not?

 

[noharleyyet]

Nice posts chambero. Well said all around.

28zero...isn't this compliment a cue for another of your oxy-'moronic' belches?

 

[Oak]

So you don't consider hunting coyotes in Wyoming a "sport" hunting season? Why not?

I wouldn't consider it a season, because they can be taken year-round with no license needed.

 

[MattK]

BHR- Do you consider shooting gophers "sport hunting"?

 

[BigHornRam]

Oak,

I would consider it a 365 day per year season.....except for leap year of course.

Matt,

Never shot any gophers before so I'm not sure what to consider it. Coyotes are a different story....definately "sport hunting". Wolves......I'm thinking they will be a lot like hunting big coyotes, so I'm going to put that down as "sport hunting" too.

 

[mtmiller]

Let's debate whether the sky is blue for a while.

 

[Oak]

It's black. I just looked outside.

 

[shoots-straight]

BHR,

The only thing consistant with your posts is the fact that your inconsistant.

Nice to see your coming around on the fact that wolves should be considered sporting animals.

 

[cmiddleton]

buzz the facts are we were told how many pack the fws wanted and where.
how many are there now and where? fws is in breech of contract.
wyoming will keep the ones in the park and the ones agreed to before introduction. as the experimental population. every one wolf more than that should be taken out by the fws with their dime.
i think wyoming should fire you and hire Robert. he has a lot more common scents and knowledge about ag and ranching then you. he also can talk without cutting folks down and whining.
he should get with gov Dave and maybe he can help come up with a plan that wyoming can live with.
the public lands belong to everyone, ranchers and workers too.
the forest service should change the slogan from "land of many uses" to "land you can not use."
if its only yours lets see the deed.
Jose fysmd yep we made money today working in a coal mine and the oil field and wiring some motels. plus i got a good connection to get into the methane fields. as long as my men are working they are adding to the economy instead of living off it

 

[BuzzH]

Middleton,

Another articulate piece of western red-neck jibberish.

FS land is the land of no use? Really?

Please explain the 380,000 miles of inventoried roads. Please explain the hundreds of thousands of hours of hunting. The hundreds of thousand of hours spent fishing, hiking, bird watching, camping, etc. etc. etc.

Please explain all the grazing that happens on FS lands...including grazing in DESIGNATED WILDERNESS areas.

Please explain the logging that continues to go on. Please explain all the mining.

Land of no use...what a joke, maybe you should get off the couch once in while Junior.

The first step for people like you...that have no clue as to what the FS is required to provide on its lands...is to educate yourself. Try the National Forest Management Act for a good place to start. You sound like an idiot...I wonder why?

As to your argument about the FWS being in violation of their agreement (EIS). No way. Thats just plain redneck crazy talk there.

The number of packs would only be at the desired levels if WY would have come up with an acceptable plan...which was commented on and agreed to in several hundred scoping meetings and 3 public comment periods. WY had more than enough time to address their concerns in the 4-5 years prior to agreeing with the final EIS. They agreed to the terms and have not lived up to their end. Thats a fact.

That is precisely why wolf numbers are way over objective is because of WY's unwillingness to live up to the EIS. If WY had an acceptable plan, wolves would already be under state management and thusly under control.

Those are the facts.

If you dont like it...too bad.

 

[cmiddleton]

i thought that's what you are pushing for no grazing, drilling or logging only you and mountain bikers being able to use it.
around sundance they closed off a lot of roads to snowmobiling but its ok for mountain bikes. the bikes do more damage then a snowmobile. when i was a kid we snowmobiled to cook lake from town on what is now a mountain bike trail. muddy mountain they keep closed to hiking horse back and atv's but its ok to mountain bike.
we had been told that inside the park and the wilderness they could be big game and outside that area they could be a predator its the fws that is holding it up. Wyoming's plan will keep the wolves in those areas but not in the rest of the state. that is what we agreed to and that is our plan.

 

[mtmiller]

around sundance they closed off a lot of roads to snowmobiling but its ok for mountain bikes. the bikes do more damage then a snowmobile. when i was a kid we snowmobiled to cook lake from town on what is now a mountain bike trail. muddy mountain they keep closed to hiking horse back and atv's but its ok to mountain bike.

middleton, this is intesting. Do you have a link to these closures, I would like to know more.

 

[1_pointer]

He thinks that rich tree-huggers can bid on and hold federal leases and then not graze it

They can't????? Hmmm, someone better do some checking...

PS- BTW, the new grazing regs (DOI) that came out last summer had some pretty interesting changes. Most have been implemented, those that haven't involve interested party type things.

 

[mtmiller]

They can't????? Hmmm, someone better do some checking...

Please elaborate Tyler. I have not heard of it up here.

 

[cmiddleton]

sheep nose trail is now a mountain bike trail. all those steel gates on fire trails all over the forest were not there when i was a kid and snowmobiling.
you could ride any of them any time snowmobile, motorcycle, atv, or truck.
it all came about with Clinton & gore.
i can see closing them but why is a mountain bike excluded from the closures
muddy mountain you can't hike but you can bike? whats up with that can't ride a horse but can ride a bike? it is closed for elk calving so i understand why we want people to stay out but why is a bike allowed to ride threw a area you can't walk in. are elk not afraid of a biker?
i think the head of the forest service is a big mountain biker.
Who's doing all the yelling about drilling and where? so its ok with you if we drill in the Bridger Tetons national forest? What closed the US steel mine out of lander? who took a buddy of mine to court over a legal gold claim then while he was at court they bulldozed his house and mine then ran a ripper up his drive way so he and his kids had to walk in and out.
Clinton and gore, USFS, he owns 5 acres with a existing access road and had a legal gold claim. the road went threw FS and BLM. maybe they could close the access road but they had no right to bulldoze his house before they won anything in court. now its is still rapped up in court and they are trying to drag it out and out last him. he is a mountain man like the old days and is as stubborn as i am.
my great uncle had a gold claim he worked and made jewelry for a living. he was 79 yrs old they closed his access road which effectively locked him out. his claim was still good but he could no longer get there. it let the wind out of his sails and he went down hill after that.
yep the USFS did screw people over when billory and s[G]ore loser were running things in Washington.
You buzz sound like you and Gore would have gotten along great. the sky is falling the sky is falling