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Vail resorts good or evil?:nimbyism in the inter mountain west.

GrantK said:
I don't disagree with this, I think there is a fair bit of nuance to it though, My county has two towns that are pretty wildly different in character, one is a tourist mecca and is being overrun and IMO, ruined by the rampant profiteering at all cost of the tourist industry, the other town is very much absentee second homeowners and wealthy trustafarians, it turns out that without some sort of "affordable housing" neither can keep around the people who actually show up and make the towns run, the corruption and NIMBYism that go with letting the rich essentially run the city council and have their way is far worse that what is happening now with a small amount of affordable housing allowing people who otherwise couldn't get in the door to have a say in how things are managed, it turns out that the people who want to live here and are willing to sacrifice to make it happen are much more invested in keeping the place awesome, whereas the wealthy couldn't care less as long as their two weeks a year here are fun, and the tourism industry money hogs want to essentially strip mine every dollar they can and move on to the next town...

It's probably also relevant to note that at least where I am the affordable housing only goes to people who are already residents and make their living locally, theoretically, it shouldn't add to the population, it should just diversify the income level a bit, the reality is probably that it brings in a few people indirectly? also, our area is growing a ton regardless, the minor amount of affordable housing isn't really even a blip on the overall growth...

Full disclosure is that my wife runs a nonprofit that creates affordable housing locally, when she was getting it off the ground my opinion was very much the same as yours, no subsidized housing of any kind, which needless to say created a pretty stressful relationship for a bit... in the long term my outlook has softened a bit as the affordable housing has managed to keep around the people who love the place much more than the wealthy and fight to keep it an awesome place to live, that very well may not be the case for all, or even most affordable projects...
Click to expand...
 
neffa3 said:
If a town doesn't run, if there's no where to eat out because there is no staff, if no one is fixing the potholes... then it won't be fun. The only way this battle is won is through a battle of attrition, with the lowest possible standard of living as the common denominator.
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unfortunately, it seems like there is always someone willing to do this work from outside so infrastructure failure doesn't shut things down, we are well past the point of no service industry living locally... I wasn't clear, I was referring more to the roles of city/town council, county commissioners, etc. if there are not a diversity of economic backgrounds then these positions get filled by wealthy people working for their own interest, I've seen some truly mind blowing things pushed through because there was a monopoly of business interest on the council, the people who care about sustainability are largely the locals who are slowly getting pushed out...

How is this not a negative feedback loop? If I want to live in a beautiful place, and I can get affordable housing, then wouldn't I be more willing to work for VR for a lower wage?
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I'm sure to some extent it is... I'd argue that most high-end towns affordable housing isn't closing the gap between VR salary and home ownership...

Here are my recommendations for those wanting to keep a mt town cool.
-Land Use zoning: Require high density urban developments with developer funded infrastructure (water, sewer, street). Maintain high level of service for these utilities. The goal is to make developments cost prohibitive.
-Support higher non-urban development standards/codes, with off-setting mitigation and conservation easements a requirement. Min 40 ac zoning, no accessory dwellings.
-Taxes on all real estate transactions to fund public land banks.
-Outlaw short-term rentals, or at least go to a permit system and require the owner live on site.
-Oppose high speed internet expansion
-Oppose all traffic projects
-Oppose all economic growth/tourism efforts.
Click to expand...
Nailed it...
 
GrantK said:
unfortunately, it seems like there is always someone willing to do this work from outside so infrastructure failure doesn't shut things down, we are well past the point of no service industry living locally... I wasn't clear, I was referring more to the roles of city/town council, county commissioners, etc. if there are not a diversity of economic backgrounds then these positions get filled by wealthy people working for their own interest, I've seen some truly mind blowing things pushed through because there was a monopoly of business interest on the council, the people who care about sustainability are largely the locals who are slowly getting pushed out...
Click to expand...
Definitely a risk. We've seen some of it happen, enough that one City council has residency requirements (340 days a year) and another has seats based on geography with limits on how many sectors can be represented.

Unfortunately, most of my list of things to support increase housing costs but not enough to really make a difference to the 1%, the only thing that seems to impact them is really crappy services.
 
neffa3 said:
If a town doesn't run, if there's no where to eat out because there is no staff, if no one is fixing the potholes... then it won't be fun. The only way this battle is won is through a battle of attrition, with the lowest possible standard of living as the common denominator.

How is this not a negative feedback loop? If I want to live in a beautiful place, and I can get affordable housing, then wouldn't I be more willing to work for VR for a lower wage?

Sounds like my feral cat situation... but I haven't softened.


Here are my recommendations for those wanting to keep a mt town cool.
-Land Use zoning: Require high density urban developments with developer funded infrastructure (water, sewer, street). Maintain high level of service for these utilities. The goal is to make developments cost prohibitive.
-Support higher non-urban development standards/codes, with off-setting mitigation and conservation easements a requirement. Min 40 ac zoning, no accessory dwellings.
-Taxes on all real estate transactions to fund public land banks.
-Outlaw short-term rentals, or at least go to a permit system and require the owner live on site.
-Oppose high speed internet expansion
-Oppose all traffic projects
-Oppose all economic growth/tourism efforts.
Click to expand...
It’s interesting… outside of Vail a lot of that area still doesn’t have decent internet, accessory dwellings were illegal, some of the other stuff was tried to some extent in the 90s and 00s but it has flipped, housing is so bad the town will loan you $150k at 0% interest to build a accessory dwelling on your property.

I don’t entirely disagree with your premise, if one is truly a capitalist you might say well you want to live in those places pay for it, and then as far as keeping those places running well the market would do it… if rich folks wanted services they would have to pay for it. I mean kinda my life goal… make enough that you can afford to buy back… I’m not moving to MI for the scenery.

I think the problem here is that Vail is trying to “cheat” and avoid paying more for labor.

1. Using J-1s visas in a way that kinda goes against why that program was setup, essentially trying to use foreign labor v. US citizens.

2. Vail is trying to strong arm the town so they can control the housing, pay employees the same and then flip the realestate later.

Also destroying sheep winter range.
 
Oak said:
Back on track here.

www.vaildaily.com

Judge grants Vail immediate possession of Vail Resorts’ owned site in East Vail

On Friday, June 30, Eagle County District Court Chief Judge Paul Dunkelman issued an order, ruling in favor of the town of Vail in the immediate possession hearing against Vail Resorts. The order punctuates a...
www.vaildaily.com www.vaildaily.com
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1688418765921.gif

Big thank you goes out to all involved! This means more to me than a lot of other things when it comes to sheep. I watched that herd almost on a daily basis growing up!
 
Straight Arrow said:
NIMBYism is a natural human dynamic, particularly in those areas where wildlife, pristine areas, quiet rural lifestyle, and TRAFFIC are so adversely impacted by huge corporations from elsewhere exploiting the landscape and catering to the extremely wealthy who visit to recreate and temporarily reside in huge mega-millions mansions which intrusively and adversely impact the very "wilderness" they come to enjoy.

The necessary workforce of service workers and other low paid employees creates a real "affordable" housing problem which creates ripple effect throughout the region.
Prime example is the dense housing project at Gallatin Gateway along Die-way 191 leading to Big Sky where 350 new front doors are erected, primarily to house Big Sky and Yellowstone Club workers. The historic jumping off point from the Milwaukee Railroad terminus for travelers to Yellowstone Park back in the day is the beautiful Gallatin Gateway Inn, which is now a dormitory, kitchen, and center for hundreds of service workers who are bussed daily to Big Sky. On each end of that impressive building are constructed square box dormitory structures with architectural design of ugly contrast.
The little historic town of Gallatin Gateway, with less than 200 front doors, is being overwhelmed by this growth and facilities for support of Big Sky and Yellowstone Club, with no negligible benefit to the community. The fear is that this quaint little berg is becoming Cross Harbor Capitalville, overwhelmed by that corporation from back east.

As someone who has lived just west of Gateway for over 45 years, am I concerned with a strong bias? You can bet your sweet arse I am!
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It sounds like the Florida Keys. They bus the "Help" in every day, lawn guys/gardeners, cleaning ladies, waiters/waitresses, A/C repair guy, you name it. Don't let the door hit you in the ass in our little paradise. Discrimination at its finest. Also exists in Lib Boca Raton big time.
 
coloradosun.com

One-fifth of Crested Butte’s restaurants have closed, leaving tourists hungry

Crested Butte's grocery store will temporarily close this month, too, but it's a short-term problem as some eateries reinvent themselves
coloradosun.com coloradosun.com

Vail isn't alone. Have our cake and eat it too but like corn bread said, don't let the door hit ya in the ass, whether it's the bussed in help or the sleepy early 20s hippie
 
BoulderBulls said:
coloradosun.com

One-fifth of Crested Butte’s restaurants have closed, leaving tourists hungry

Crested Butte's grocery store will temporarily close this month, too, but it's a short-term problem as some eateries reinvent themselves
coloradosun.com coloradosun.com

Vail isn't alone. Have our cake and eat it too but like corn bread said, don't let the door hit ya in the ass, whether it's the bussed in help or the sleepy early 20s hippie
Click to expand...
it’s a shame what CB has become, I’ve spent about 75% of my vacation time in and around the area over the last 15 years. Had an awesome vibe until about 10 years ago. Once they built that abomination of an arts center it lost its appeal to me. Progress I guess…
 
D_Walt said:
it’s a shame what CB has become, I’ve spent about 75% of my vacation time in and around the area over the last 15 years. Had an awesome vibe until about 10 years ago. Once they built that abomination of an arts center it lost its appeal to me. Progress I guess…
Click to expand...
It was an incredible community when I was there in the 1980s. No lifts on the North Face, and Sunshine's Paradise nekkid bathhouse downtown. I hope there are still vibrant mountain towns that haven't been sold to the highest bidder, like CB used to be. Please don't list them here, or anywhere.
 
ajrcktts said:
Means feel free to come work but you're not worthy of living here with the rest of us. Don't let the door hit you on the way back to the mainland where the rest of the help lives.
Click to expand...
Thank you. Everybody got it but him. Takes all kinds
 
Interesting article in the Atlantic regarding housing shortages and NIMBYism in Montana. Curious what the Montana HuntTalkers have to say on it....
www.theatlantic.com

The Anti-California

How Montana performed a housing miracle
www.theatlantic.com www.theatlantic.com
 
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