Vail resorts good or evil?:nimbyism in the inter mountain west.

[Deleted member 28227]

I'm not as familiar with Vail, but Big Sky isn't much different. Corporations trying to downsize the payroll isn't new. They use a lot of contractors and those contractors often have to live in other places. These days any construction in Big Sky is typically done by workers commuting from Bozeman. I assume that whatever the bid was accounted for that PITA. I only take exception to the phrase "stick it out". People chose where they live. That was my point.

Yeah they live in Eagle/Gypsum/Dotsero/Red Cliff and Leadville... Vail is saying not good enough fire anyone whose been here 15+ years and hire more Brazilian college students, sweeten the pot by allowing us to own their housing, and then let us turn that housing into a giant hotel or whatever a decade down the line after the employee housing becomes too gross to live in due to our lack of upkeep.

 

[Dougfirtree]

We all know all the money is in the private lessons.

A private ski lesson at vail is $1400 a day, the instructor get's paid... maybe $140 or ~10% even Deloitte consultants are like

Yes and when I was a ski instructor, private lessons were the currency by which managers could reward/punish instructors.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

@SAJ-99 nimby... if locals living 40 miles away is nimby

 

[SAJ-99]

@SAJ-99 nimby... if locals living 40 miles away is nimby

I'm not saying I like it, but there is nothing I can do about it. There is no government regulation that can fix it and I doubt a union will solve it. I guess that most of the workers I have seen at ski mountains wouldn't want to pay the union dues. I have definitely seen a decline in the quality of staff over the last 7 years, but the family keeps skiing. All kinds of places are struggling finding staff. Paying more or providing housing should be a competitive advantage.

These towns are not self-sustaining economies and will never be.

 

[elkduds]

Yes and when I was a ski instructor, private lessons were the currency by which managers could reward/punish instructors.

Unless you sold yourself for request privates. The privates only list was a big carrot and stick by management.

 

[Nameless Range]

I love Vail, they're totally all about the little guy...

View attachment 268313

Wacky. I just bought season passes at our local rock for $350 per adult. Can't fathom paying that much a day.

 

[Southern Elk]

Wacky. I just bought season passes at our local rock for $350 per adult. Can't fathom paying that much a day.

Thank God for local ski hills on leased ground that aren’t surrounded by luxury homes. It gives us peasants a place to ski.

 

[Dsnow9]

We all know all the money is in the private lessons.

A private ski lesson at vail is $1400 a day, the instructor get's paid... maybe $140 or ~10% even Deloitte consultants are like

Exactly. And a lift ticket, lunch (resort owned), rentals (resort owned), lodging (resort owned), shuttle from the airport (resort owned), Starbucks (resort owned), all the high end village shopping (resort owned). All with insane markups and staff across the board making minimum wage.

When I taught in beaver creek most of my clientele was private clientele. I want to say I was making $12-$15/hr as a certified instructor with a professional snowboarding background for a 6 hour day off of that $1400 private lesson. When clients would joke about how much I must be making I would tell them and most were shocked, the others were appalled. It usually helped get my lunch paid for and a better tip but that was about it.

Ps the cheapest SOB’s out there were usually the ones that didn’t even blink at the price.

 

[cedahm]

Yeah they live in Eagle/Gypsum/Dotsero/Red Cliff and Leadville... Vail is saying not good enough fire anyone whose been here 15+ years and hire more Brazilian college students, sweeten the pot by allowing us to own their housing, and then let us turn that housing into a giant hotel or whatever a decade down the line after the employee housing becomes too gross to live in due to our lack of upkeep.

These towns are not self-sustaining economies and will never be.

Vail, the town, didn't even exist until 1966. It was built out to be pretty much exactly what it has become. Without the resort(s), the towns Will mentioned would be different also, Red Cliff would probably be as much a ghost town as the one at the bridge on the way in. But cue the influx of many Billions of dollars and you get a much different community and economy.

And, IMO most impactful, VR went public in the early 00's, and then they had to answer to shareholders and primary focus to shareholder value. Two big things from that:

- Multi-resort passes (locking in revenue and generating cash flow in what are normally 'dead' months and quarters for ski area operators. They started in the late 90's but kicked into high gear as VA/VR consolidated resorts and their competition at Alterra, ASC, etc did, also)

- M&A (have to show constant growth to wall street, and inorganic growth was easy to come by in their growth period) - snapping up resorts, real estate and retail outlets for that 'vertically integrated' operation that the street generally wants to see

Both of these (and a myriad of other things) constrain operations budgets, and sadly, labor is a lever they can pull (or shift to J-1 programs) relatively easily since people want to live and work there for the most part. Rinse and repeat.

even Deloitte consultants are like

Hey now - I (used to) resemble that remark, but yeah...you wouldn't have a consultancy for long if you took that level of margin.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

- M&A (have to show constant growth to wall street, and inorganic growth was easy to come by in their growth period) - snapping up resorts, real estate and retail outlets for that 'vertically integrated' operation that the street generally wants to see

Why I think ski areas are a dead end to some extent. The east coast endeavors IMHO are a disaster, at best ski areas are a dividend stock... at worst (for Wall Street) they are a community area to play.

a ghost town as the one at the bridge on the way in.

Gilman aka the Eagle Mine which is a Superfund site now owned by Viacom.

 

[Foldem]

I love Vail, they're totally all about the little guy...

View attachment 268313

I believe my unrestricted Mammoth/June season pass when I was in college was $199.

I used to ski squaw valley for $5 a day when I was a kid.

 

[BoulderBulls]

 

[Aperventure]

Naw do it like Pullman in the company town back in late 1800’s; cut the pay and keep rents/utilities same. So is this progress?!?!

Here is what you’re missing.

(1) Ski areas have tight margins, running lifts and selling tickets barely lets them break even. For a lot of resorts they get into the black from selling those $25 burgers.

(2) Vail makes most of its money on $3000 a night hotel rooms and Realestate development. All the little McMansions surrounding the areas. This was the driver for the first acquisition of Beaver Creek when I was a kid, then Arrowhead etc

(3) When vail went public they realized they need to make the books look better, so they decided to do this by reducing labor costs. Vail fired virtually every manager, senior employee or anyone who was making the bare minimum. These folks are the longtime locals, they had stuck it out in the valley paid their dues and managed to buy homes (back when prices were only terrible not epic).

Vail has shit in their own bed and now they want to be bailed out. They did have employees with housing, but they fired them.

This is a 40 story of greed buddy and you are jumping in at year 41.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Naw do it like Pullman in the company town back in late 1800’s; cut the pay and keep rents/utilities same. So is this progress?!?!

One way to boost the share price I guess

 

[MTGomer]

i haven't done the math, but i'd wager that after you adjust for cost of living, a nurse making the move from Good Samaritan, Lutheran, or Swedish in the Denver area isn't really taking a pay cut if they make a switch to bozeman

Is there something other than housing that makes Denver metro really expensive?

Single family homes for sale in Bozeman
Under $500k : 0
500-600k: 2
600-700: 10

That’s dismal

 

[Nameless Range]

Is there something other than housing that makes Denver metro really expensive?

Single family homes for sale in Bozeman
Under $500k : 0
500-600k: 2
600-700: 10

That’s dismal

The plebes can drive from Townsend or Big Timber. And they do.

 

[TOGIE]

Is there something other than housing that makes Denver metro really expensive?

Single family homes for sale in Bozeman
Under $500k : 0
500-600k: 2
600-700: 10

That’s dismal

many things, but the cost to your soul can't be measured.

 

[338win]

I went through the Great Outdoors Colorado grant process but got out bid by a developer. His plan was to put something like 50 housing units on the 57 acres, of which there is a very small building envelope. End up battling it out with the town zoning board and got it restricted to single family homes, of which there are now 2 on the property. Feels like a loss every time I drive by.

50 units can you imagine just the parking lot for a complex that big fitting on that lot.

View attachment 268254

Isn't blocking multiple units in favor of larger Sq ft fewer single family units similar to what is causing California's housing crisis? Looks like a loss of 48 living spaces. I'm not saying everything needs to be dozed and developed but people gotta live somewhere unless we go full soylent green.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Isn't blocking multiple units in favor of larger Sq ft fewer single family units similar to what is causing California's housing crisis? Looks like a loss of 48 living spaces. I'm not saying everything needs to be dozed and developed but people gotta live somewhere unless we go full soylent green.

Totally agree, context being the key factor. That particular lot had a tiny envelope; giant cliff behind and a steep embankment into a riparian area + was a primary migration corridor.

 

[Aperventure]

One way to boost the share price I guess

Which is their goal since IPO… though it does seem like this type of move is on the “wrong side” of the line; however other operational (which result in externalities) and accounting maneuvers still remain on the “right side” of the line