Vail resorts good or evil?:nimbyism in the inter mountain west.

[elkduds]

BTW, 2 years ago Vail bought Crested Butte Mountain Resort, which was ragingly independent for many years. I met several CB refugees working @ Monarch, they said they left because of Vail management and personnel policies. Plethora of Vail Sucks stickers all over the ski school and lifty locker room @ Monarch. Along with Nobody Cares That You Tele, Trump Skis in Jeans, and many with 5 green leaves. . .

 

[338win]

 

[Gellar]

I have been in CO almost 14 years now. I love to ski and have skied from Snowshoe to Whistler in North America, Italy, Germany and Austria. I will say, without reservation, that I find all major ski resort operators pretty disgusting (to varying degrees). The business model has always been based on exploiting labor of 1) locals who don't have a lot of employment options and 2) Ski folks who are ok living very basic in order to get freshies. Add to that the development, congestion and attraction of some of the worst, most entitled people on the planet and you really have to question whether they TRULY benefit the areas they exist in or are just giant spheres of money for corps and coastal elites in an endless cycle. The worst for me so far is seeing what is happening to Winter Park. What used to be a great, chill area(it IS a city park after all) with epic MJ terrain is now the land of freakin $250 daily lift tickets and a douchey faux-alpine village base. I am all for squeezing ALL such resort corps to the brink. BTW, economic impact wise hunting and fishing bring in about .5 billion a year MORE than skiing to CO.

I did some otc hunting in that area 6-7 years ago. We drove through Winter park 2 years ago and again this year on our way to hunt. The amount that town changed in that short time was crazy. Almost unrecognizable.

 

[MTLabrador]

I know absolutely nothing about Colorado, but if the question was about a housing project at Big Sky that was going to displace a single cow elk, I know which way I’m leaning.

It’s not NIMBY for me anymore, it’s GTFOOMBY. I’m sure the guys who grew up in Colorado feel the same way I do about Montana.

Edit: Damn I’m feeling salty at the end of my week. No offense meant Douglas, that’s just my opinion.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

This should be your screen name/profile pic
View attachment 268143

Maybe so… been trying to stop this kind of poorly planned adverse impact in the valley since before oak was on hunt talk, well almost as long

 

[Khunter]

Came here looking for sensible debate, instead I get core checked and my service questioned.

Thank you for your service. You are spoeaking of a short stint working for a ski co?

 

[Nameless Range]

I don’t know much about this specific issue, though I will say this thread is interesting. I do think about NIMBYism a fair amount. It’s funny, I wrote this to myself almost a year ago while thinking through my own opposition to a proposed development in a geography I regard as sacred, that today increasingly looks like it’s going to happen and thus will change my relationship to that place.

Those who oppose certain or any developments in their necks of the woods are often disparagingly referred to as NIMBYs (Not In My Back Yard). There is a case to be made that NIMBYs are often unreasonable, and are actually just YISEBYs (Yes In Someone Else’s Back Yard) – the someone else likely being those not as well-off as the NIMBYs. One of my daily reads is the economist Tyler Cowen’s blog, Marginal Revolution. He makes good cases that folks should strive to be YIMBYs (Yes In My Back Yard) - often for the sake of economic opportunity for those who'd be considered in a “lower” economic class. It’s interesting anyway. I think compelling cases can be made that NIMBYs often kick a can down the road to the less-fortunate part of town or to the detriment of those less-fortunate.

Even more, if you have ever found yourself as a NIMBY, you probably know that you made your decision instantly, and everything you did moving forward was simply an accumulation of arguments and positions to defend your presupposition. It is the old Arguments Are Soldiers: “Arguments are soldiers. Once you know which side you're on, you must support all arguments of that side, and attack all arguments that appear to favor the enemy side; otherwise it's like stabbing your soldiers in the back - providing aid and comfort to the enemy. “

Not a particularly good way to think.

And yet, I can think of a situation where kicking a can down the road makes sense – particularly if you are a few hundred feet from the dump. From one uncontroversial premise: There are certain places where certain land uses are not appropriate or are not a net-good. It then follows that NIMBYs are not always necessarily wrong. Further, I would ask: Who better to speak up for a chunk of earth than those who know it best and love it most and whose lives and memories are layered upon it?

And so NIMBY, though possibly useful as a category of generalization, has little utility when discussing a specific issue or proposed development. It’s too susceptible to ad hominemization, and we gotta dig into the facts and details - many of which will simply be arguments as soldiers - to really decide whether or not a future yet-realized makes sense.

TLDR: it’s not clear to me that the concept of a NIMBY is a useful or fair category of thought when trying to work through the merits of a specific proposal.

 

[kansasdad]

@wllm

WOW!

 

[ammo]

 

[noharleyyet]

Maybe so… been trying to stop this kind of poorly planned adverse impact in the valley since before oak was on hunt talk, well almost as long

Without a doubt the most impressive humblebrag I've ever seen . . .

 

[ammo]

(avid follower/supporter of the IG account and general movement of @failresorts and the overall protest that is the mega-pass/mega-resort uptick in the ****ery of mountain towns/mountain communities)

No, it's not new - however Epic/Ikon have changed the landscape for the worst. By overselling passes the mega-resort-companies have created even more of a clusterfuck in Colorado. Vail, Summit, Steamboat - as well as other communities too, but as somebody who lives near one of the areas that the passes impact [I live in the middle of nowhere literally so, it's the 'go to town' runs] is radically impacted by the onslaught of more people than ever before on the slopes and unfortunately in towns and infrastructures that can't handle it all. The community page for Summit in particular is one of the most disheartening. i70 shutdowns ripple and create gridlock for all of Summit. Ambulances can't get through. Locals just trying to get groceries can't get from one end to the other.

I digress.

If you want to do something good, throw a few bucks to Tim - https://www.gofundme.com/f/2zgtzg-m...2-donation-receipt-adyen&utm_content=internal

He protests the aforementioned ****ery in a chicken suit and is delightful. Go Tim!!! Keep fighting.

 

[ammo]

Maybe so… been trying to stop this kind of poorly planned adverse impact in the valley since before oak was on hunt talk, well almost as long

Will this is awesome!!! What a cool nerd you were (are!)

 

[Nameless Range]

Maybe so… been trying to stop this kind of poorly planned adverse impact in the valley since before oak was on hunt talk, well almost as long

What does that chunk of earth look like now?

 

[Deleted member 28227]

What does that chunk of earth look like now?

I went through the Great Outdoors Colorado grant process but got out bid by a developer. His plan was to put something like 50 housing units on the 57 acres, of which there is a very small building envelope. End up battling it out with the town zoning board and got it restricted to single family homes, of which there are now 2 on the property. Feels like a loss every time I drive by.

50 units can you imagine just the parking lot for a complex that big fitting on that lot.

 

[Gellar]

I went through the Great Outdoors Colorado grant process but got out bid by a developer. His plan was to put something like 50 housing units on the 57 acres, of which there is a very small building envelope. End up battling it out with the town zoning board and got it restricted to single family homes, of which there are now 2 on the property. Feels like a loss every time I drive by.

50 units can you imagine just the parking lot for a complex that big fitting on that lot.

View attachment 268254

Does CO have a minimum amount of acres you have to own to build? In my county you have to have at least 3 acres in a rural area to build on unless it’s already zoned Residential. But some counties have much more.

 

[Dinkshooter]

#*^@#* Vail

x100

 

[Beignet]

No, it's not new - however Epic/Ikon have changed the landscape for the worst. By overselling passes the mega-resort-companies have created even more of a clusterfuck in Colorado.

I exclusively stick to the cheapo yokel ski hills we have up here and avoid the resorts, so I’m unfamiliar with all the dynamics at play. Can you give a nutshell explanation as to how those passes made things worse?

 

[Dinkshooter]

The fact of the matter at this time is Vail Resorts........................ they've been offered other locations, they've been offered a buy out.

Yet, they still chose to try and stick it to everyone, locals, J1's, , seasonal employees, town of vail, Eagle County, sheep etc.

What is exactly the debate here?

 

[ammo]

I exclusively stick to the cheapo yokel ski hills we have up here and avoid the resorts, so I’m unfamiliar with all the dynamics at play. Can you give a nutshell explanation as to how those passes made things worse?

One could write an essay on the topic! But the short of it is specifically Vail (Alterra isn't completely off the hook) continues to oversell Epic passes and buy up your wonderful little yokel ski hills. Specifically in Colorado the mega-passes have led to even more people skiing every single weekend, more people pressuring mountain towns. More traffic, more cars on the road. More second home owners and airbnbs. Less affordable housing and shitty pay for locals and resort workers. Epic/Ikon are a metaphorical dumpster fire on a system that was already in the so called dumps.

 

[DouglasR]

Thank you for your service. You are spoeaking of a short stint working for a ski co?

I spent 4.5 months on my back in ten mile canyon and this is how I get repaid!