Ukraine / Russia

[LWC55]

Zelensky must be going through hell over there. Between Vogue photo shoots and meeting with B level celebs. Then fighting for your life and commanding a military. Setting up that schedule must be a nightmare.

Zelenskys' 'Vogue' photoshoot in war-torn Ukraine divides public

Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelensky and his wife Olena Zelenska posed for famed photographer Annie Leibovitz at the high fashion shoot, sparking online debate.

www.newsweek.com

Actress Jessica Chastain meets with Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelensky in Kyiv

Actress Jessica Chastain met with Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelensky in Kyiv on Sunday.

nypost.com

Ukraine thanks Ben Stiller, Angelina Jolie and other stars for visiting "despite the danger"

Stars such as Liev Schreiber and Sean Penn have also visited Ukraine to show support during the war with Russia.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[noharleyyet]

Not sure what "pony" means in this situation. Granted, I'm on my first cup of coffee.

The reliable "horsechit" adage...

 

[Sytes]

Not sure what "pony" means in this situation. Granted, I'm on my first cup of coffee.

I work the google machine more to decipher Ken's posts than to share "Facts", as found fitting my interest.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Is transparency international perfect - no. Is any agency or study perfect - no. Is any anecdotal personal opinion on the internet perfect - very much no.

But I do believe transparency international is rigorous and transparent enough that it is a starting point for discussion and inquiry.

If this starting point is insufficient you can always read the 13 different studies they summarized and critique each, correct for any methodological errors in your view - redo the weighting of the studies, add new studies you find credible and come up with your own ranking.

I just don’t know how we can run even a semi-working society when folks want to just ignore all external evidence and do everything by gut anecdote.

Be skeptical, absolutely, but then do the work to get an actual better understanding. If Fact Source A says that X is true, it is fine (even good in my view) to be skeptical of that conclusion and to pick it apart and to raise your own non-anecdotal evidence to develop credible proof that the fact is that Z is true. But merely rejecting A because you don’t trust any organization is proof of nothing. So at best you can say you don’t believe X is true - in no way does that make Z true.

So, if someone doesn’t like the TI data provided here, provide specific methological critique, offer data from another geneally known source, or say you just don’t care enough to dig into this particular question. But it is irrational just to cling to “America is just as corrupt as Ukraine” or “Ukraine is the most corrupt country in the world” as matters of unsupported personal belief. It is highly unlikely that either statement is true and credible evidence should be required to say otherwise.

It is weird how folks can reject professional data sources while then accepting a lone internet stranger’s unsupported beliefs. Why not be at least as skeptical in the case of the later. Of course the answer is likely cognitive confirmation bias.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Thanks Viking, is transparency international anything like amnesty international?

Also, one knows what they say about statistics.

I do not know of any connection between the two.

As for TI - it is a legit group. I tend to disagree with their tendency to over weigh formal process over demonstrated failures, but there are two camps in the general auditing world too - how much can good process ensure outcomes without actually tracking outcomes.

As a result I think Denmark gets too much credit for feel good laws and the US gets downgraded for having less bureaucracy than Northern Europe.

But all said TI is probably a directionally correct place to start an inquiry.

Having done business in over 40 countries I would score US better than TI did and Ukraine and Russia about the same as TI did. But their data is more thorough than my anecdote.

 

[rwc101]

Selective outrage about corruption.

EU Catalogs Renegade Orban’s Dozen Years of Democratic Decay

The European Union’s rift with the regime of Hungary’s Prime Minister Viktor Orban was laid bare in a cutting letter cataloging allegations of corruption and violations of the rule of law, raising the risk that the nation may ultimately lose billions of euros in crucial funding.

www.bloomberg.com

 

[VikingsGuy]

Yo Rocky!

An early proponent of Idiocracy for sure. “Adrianne”.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I think we’ve all been jaded with fact exchequers VGuy, especially the ones extolling gubment veracity.

Fine, reject a source, but at least be as skeptical of statements that conveniently support one’s own biased anecdotal viewpoints.

Rejecting one source provides zero evidence or support for the opposite hypothesis.

So if TI is out, and cornbread is out, and Willy is out as credible fact based sources than I guess we can draw no conclusions about the relative corruptness of the US or Ukraine. So at best we have no position on the issue. Way to go internet.

 

[Sytes]

An early proponent of Idiocracy for sure. “Adrianne”.

Guilty. God made a Luciferous deal. Gifted my Adrianne... and I'm still trying to figure what she did to piss him off.

 

[noharleyyet]

Fine, reject a source, but at least be as skeptical of statements that conveniently support one’s own biased anecdotal viewpoints.

Rejecting one source provides zero evidence or support for the opposite hypothesis.

So if TI is out, and cornbread is out, and Willy is out as credible fact based sources than I guess we can draw no conclusions about the relative corruptness of the US or Ukraine. So at best we have no position on the issue. Way to go internet.

Some of the finest thinkers on here use the term intuitively obvious, others use anecdotal...and I'm not writing term papers on demand my friend.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Some of the finest thinkers on here use the term intuitively obvious, others use anecdotal...and I'm not writing terms paper on demand my friend.

Just to be clear, how can folks who have never been to Ukraine or any of the other 50 candidates for “most corrupt” intuitively ordain that Ukraine is the “most corrupt”?

 

[BuzzH]

Some of the finest thinkers on here use the term intuitively obvious, others use anecdotal...and I'm not writing terms paper on demand my friend.

You're not even using it right..."intuitively obvious, even to a casual observer".

BTW, I stole that line from my University of Montana Hydrology Professor in 1993.

 

[noharleyyet]

You're not even using it right..."intuitively obvious, even to a casual observer".

BTW, I stole that line from my University of Montana Hydrology Professor in 1993.

It's intuitively obvious that an algorithm alerted Buzz that his quote was being butchered.

...a casual observance.

 

[noharleyyet]

Not sure what "pony" means in this situation. Granted, I'm on my first cup of coffee.

Coffee helps...

 

[QuazyQuinton]

Coffee helps...

Horses don't need coffee....

QQ

 

[VikingsGuy]

You're not even using it right..."intuitively obvious, even to a casual observer".

BTW, I stole that line from my University of Montana Hydrology Professor in 1993.

Curious, did your professor use that to avoid further evidence of a point he considered obviously true, or the opposite?

I ask, as I had a professor who routinely used the quote before teaching results that ended up being counter intuitive once understood. He used it to remind us of how much we think to be true in the moment is possibly not.

Kinda like, “It is intuitive to even the most casual observer the world is flat, but now we understand it is round.“

It works either way.

 

[SAJ-99]

Coffee helps...

It didn’t. I even Googled it and still have no idea what point you were trying to make.

 

[woods89]

You're not even using it right..."intuitively obvious, even to a casual observer".

That's a good one! I'm stealing it for my own use!

 

[KB_]

sooo... war in Ukraine, I'm beginning to wonder if what's going to happen once winter sets in. Does it escalate or continue its current trajectory.

 

[noharleyyet]

Putin is multi tasking...gaining resource territory and bleeding us. FWIW, Putin is a POS...and it's not ancient history that Russia was deemed 'not a threat'.

sooo... war in Ukraine, I'm beginning to wonder if what's going to happen once winter sets in. Does it escalate or continue its current trajectory.