Ukraine / Russia

[SAJ-99]

I think we’ve officially talked ourselves in a circle can I believe this was covered 100 pages ago, yes it worked great in World War II, it hasn’t worked great since then.

We do have a South Korea?

 

[Handlebar]

They have no choice in the short term. Just like our "tough on China" policy ended up increasing imports from China. It will take a decade or more for NATO(incl. US) to pull back from hostage status with Putin/Xi. But I doubt our spoiled domestic consumers will ever let that happen, because $500 60" HDTVs have become our birthright. We are addicted to cheap stuff and internationally supported currency.

A grade school-level game of gotcha always works from the peanut gallery. But what are the alternatives? Letting Putin/Xi run the world? How do you think that would work for America? How does Biden avoid being the next Chamberlain? How do we project our economic interests? How do we protect our single greatest national asset - the dollar as the global reserve currency? Open to sophisticated ideas from the peanut gallery - just saying no to everything doesn't work - Just retreating into our own shell will not work.

As for the whole isolationist narrative, it demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of the value of maintaining enough influence to be the reserve currency. This is worth trillions per year to our economy. It allows us to inflate our currency to absurd levels without becoming Venezuela or Greece. It allows us to have a huge military and huge (yet only marginally effective) social programs all while handing out tax refunds/breaks every 5 or 6 years. Neither left nor right wants to live in a world where the dollar is not the reserve currency - but this does not come free. Again, open to sophisticated monetary policy suggestions that generate a soft landing for our economy in a world we retreat from it and lose reserve currency status.

Asking the major powers of Europe, Germany, France, UK to actually fund the defense for Ukraine instead of relying on us, hardly seems like grade school "gotcha". That is absurd.

Just saying yes, or in this case printing money does not work either.

Perhaps we could have done is not pushed the Russians with the idea that we were going to admit Ukraine into NATO. Putin obviously felt like that may occur so he better get to invading before Ukraine was a member and NATO (but primarily USA) would come to their defense.
Perhaps there should have been a more robust (but internal) discussion with the Europeans about the fallacy of poking the bear and simultaneously becoming over reliant on the same bear for their energy needs, and quietly reminding them of the fact that we are their defense so our opinion matters. We have actually pushed Putin and Xi closer together. The one thing that you and I perhaps agree on is the danger to our status as the global reserve, one way to endanger it is to push Russia and China closer together, one is a manufacturing powerhouse the other an energy powerhouse that combination could become lethal to us. While the Yuan doesn't float the ruble does and it seems to be doing well. There is something to be said for currencies that are backed by something more substantial than full faith and credit.

Finally there has been a trend here lately that any objection to our intervention in the mess to be dismissed as either a Putin apologist, "bot" or Qanon sympathizer or a comment from the peanut gallery, this dismissive attitude is frankly insulting.

So I guess the question is how much are you willing to spend and what is an outcome that you think would palatable and is achievable.

 

[KB_]

We took Afghanistan very quickly the bullshit nation building that we did for the next 19 1/2 years was a time and money suck. They don’t calll Afghanistan the graveyard of Empire‘s for nothing.
Putin is not suicidal he is not launching nukes over Ukraine.

Have you ever been there?

Look I appreciate the counter arguments and the food for thought, It certainly brings up other perspectives. But if you think Ukraine will be any different of a situation then Afghanistan was for us, you should maybe rethink it. Our military fought hard for a long time. I personally have friends who didnt come home. We fought our hearts out. It is incredibly hard to fight an enemy you cannot clearly identify.

Just historically speaking Ukraine has seen many wars over the previous thousands of years. This thing is going to drag on until Russia gets to the point of either pulling out or bombing that place with nuclear warheads.

me personally I dont think the nuclear option will happen anytime soon, but thats me. But it still could.

 

[Rhcuam]

Have you ever been there?

Look I appreciate the counter arguments and the food for thought, It certainly brings up other perspectives. But if you think Ukraine will be any different of a situation then Afghanistan was for us, you should maybe rethink it. Our military fought hard for a long time. I personally have friends who didnt come home. We fought our hearts out. It is incredibly hard to fight an enemy you cannot clearly identify.

Just historically speaking Ukraine has seen many wars over the previous thousands of years. This thing is going to drag on until Russia gets to the point of either pulling out or bombing that place with nuclear warheads.

me personally I dont think the nuclear option will happen anytime soon, but thats me. But it still could.

Or the secure the land bridge to Crimea. And continue to destroy Ukraine while the rest of the world loses interest or they stop caring because things are deteriorating so badly at home, such as inflation gas prices.

 

[Rhcuam]

We do have a South Korea?

Fair point, it’s worked one other time in 70 years. Now list of failures

 

[Deleted member 28227]

We do have a South Korea?

Largely worked in the Balkans

 

[SAJ-99]

Fair point, it’s worked one other time in 70 years. Now list of failures

You have done that already so no need for me to. I can give and example where NOT doing it didn’t work either. Afghanistan in the 1980s. Similar parallels to Ukraine. We gave them arms to fight the Russians. They won and we walked away from a country largely in ruins. This gave rise to Al Qaeda and all the problems that came later. There are no easy solutions here. Your plan is do nothing. Seems like a bad plan.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Asking the major powers of Europe, Germany, France, UK to actually fund the defense for Ukraine instead of relying on us, hardly seems like grade school "gotcha". That is absurd.

Just saying yes, or in this case printing money does not work either.

Perhaps we could have done is not pushed the Russians with the idea that we were going to admit Ukraine into NATO. Putin obviously felt like that may occur so he better get to invading before Ukraine was a member and NATO (but primarily USA) would come to their defense.
Perhaps there should have been a more robust (but internal) discussion with the Europeans about the fallacy of poking the bear and simultaneously becoming over reliant on the same bear for their energy needs, and quietly reminding them of the fact that we are their defense so our opinion matters. We have actually pushed Putin and Xi closer together. The one thing that you and I perhaps agree on is the danger to our status as the global reserve, one way to endanger it is to push Russia and China closer together, one is a manufacturing powerhouse the other an energy powerhouse that combination could become lethal to us. While the Yuan doesn't float the ruble does and it seems to be doing well. There is something to be said for currencies that are backed by something more substantial than full faith and credit.

Finally there has been a trend here lately that any objection to our intervention in the mess to be dismissed as either a Putin apologist, "bot" or Qanon sympathizer or a comment from the peanut gallery, this dismissive attitude is frankly insulting.

So I guess the question is how much are you willing to spend and what is an outcome that you think would palatable and is achievable.

Some fair points. My apologies for being a bit snarky. Sometimes in internet debate it is hard to separate well considered thoughts/beliefs from beltway pundit talking points. I always appreciate the former even if I don’t agree, but the latter does make me testy. I shouldn’t have assumed.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

@Rhcuam I’m sure you love the >$200B we’ve given Israel over the years

 

[Rhcuam]

@Rhcuam I’m sure you love the >$200B we’ve given Israel over the years

I won’t even go there. I would of guessed it was way over that.

 

[Europe]

I just wanted to mention, it was only 4 months ago that Russia invaded Ukraine. Many of the sanctions have not hit the Russia populace to a point where they are ready to replay their 1917 revolution ( which lasted 4 years itself ) AND, after all that they ended up with Lenin.

Will history repeat itself, I doubt it and/or of it does Putin will never roll over and play dead, IMHO, so it would not be pretty. To soon to tell, but when the parts for their passenger jets, as well as their military planes, and other heavy equipment are unavailable, that will not work well for him. Also, and surprisingly, or maybe not so surprisingly, almost all cosmetics that is used by their female populace comes from the west. Think of your wife in her worst mood and then think about a million women all feeling the same way at the same time Not a pretty picture

All joking aside, it is still very early, but I am impressed with Ukraine's resistance or possibly unimpressed with Russia invasion. Maybe, a bit of both

i.e. Korea 3 yrs, Iraq 8 yrs, Vietnam 10 years, Afghanistan 13 years

 

[Cornbread]

This war was totally avoidable, how tragic for the Ukraine people and the rest of the world. Our news media is not reporting all the facts. Putin ( a ruthless leader) had given many warnings to the West but he was ignored. With the US Obama Biden endorssed overthrow of the Ukrainian President that was pro Russian in 2014, the possiblity of Ukraine joining NATO and having missle sites 600 miles from Moscow thus giving immediate 1st strike capability to NATO with no response time from Russia was just to much for him to swallow… A pro Nazi brigade of Ukraine fighters in the east, the Russians absolutely hate the NAZIs having lost 10s of millions of soldiers and civilians During WWII to their conflict the eastern front.
I personally do not think this conflict would have ever happened if Trump would have remained in office. I think the disagreements would have been worked out and a compromise reached without the terrible blood shed on both sides…. This war will destroy Ukraine, cripple Russia and destroy the value of the US dollar as we print more money to support Ukraine.

Im glad you mentioned all this. I totally agree that this was all avoidable. We threw out the pro-Russian president with a coup leaving the nazi's to take over. Russia leased the port of Odesa from the Ukraine, and one of the actions the nazis took was to cut off water to the port just to poke them in the eye. Russia had reached their limit. Can you blame them? I don't believe all this sht in the media that Putin is crazy, and that he wants the former Soviet Union back. Horsesht. You're also hearing about the poor Ukranian children. What about the poor Russian kids we are now starving by hammering their economy with sanctions. I'm not naive about Putin, but lets not be dumbasses. Victoria Nuland is playing a huge role in these foreign policies. She's a Brown University extreme liberal. I'll bet you naysayers still believe George Bush is a conservative, yet the Bush's pal it up with the Clintons. The repubs want us in this battle so their defense buddies can sell more arms at taxpayer's expense without having their fingerprints on it. Why did they abandon Trump? Trump prevented us from getting us involved in Syria. What have we done? Driven the Russians into the hands of the Chinese. What a brilliant move!! Is that what you want?

Inflation will be around for a long time. The "tightening" the Federal Reserve is doing is like kissing your Aunt Mary. They are still printing $200 Billion a month. Powell is a closet Dumbocrat. He was Trump's biggest mistake. You ain't seen the worst on oil prices. When China starts back to work, oil will surge; maybe up to $180-200.

 

[Cornbread]

Conrbread, muledeerchaser from MN. Muledeerchaser, cornbread.

Oh, you guys already know each other from QAnonchat. My bad.

Did I insult you? You can do what you want with my post. My only point was to post a different opinion than what you see with the Koolaid drinkers. I'm a dedicated conservative. and strong Trump supporter. I have 2 nephews in the military; one an officer and the other and enlisted. I'm tired of us getting involved in these shthole conflicts at the expense of the younger generation. The Ukraine is the most corrupt country in the Ukraine. Why were the Bidens over there? Could it ever be that you're wrong? I could be wrong. Do you ever consider competing ideas?

 

[Rhcuam]

It appears as Severodonetsk will fall to Russia as well. Ukraine better hope that Russia has not figured out river crossings just yet and the Donetsk River will bog them down for awhile.

The Washington post is reporting Ukraine is taking 200 casualties a day.

 

[longbow51]

Sorry you took that as an insult. Which part?

I would guess referring to someone who disagrees with you as QAnon. I think we are supposed to refrain from personal insults on threads like these.

 

[shoots-straight]

Asking the major powers of Europe, Germany, France, UK to actually fund the defense for Ukraine instead of relying on us, hardly seems like grade school "gotcha". That is absurd.

Just saying yes, or in this case printing money does not work either.

Perhaps we could have done is not pushed the Russians with the idea that we were going to admit Ukraine into NATO. Putin obviously felt like that may occur so he better get to invading before Ukraine was a member and NATO (but primarily USA) would come to their defense.
Perhaps there should have been a more robust (but internal) discussion with the Europeans about the fallacy of poking the bear and simultaneously becoming over reliant on the same bear for their energy needs, and quietly reminding them of the fact that we are their defense so our opinion matters. We have actually pushed Putin and Xi closer together. The one thing that you and I perhaps agree on is the danger to our status as the global reserve, one way to endanger it is to push Russia and China closer together, one is a manufacturing powerhouse the other an energy powerhouse that combination could become lethal to us. While the Yuan doesn't float the ruble does and it seems to be doing well. There is something to be said for currencies that are backed by something more substantial than full faith and credit.

Finally there has been a trend here lately that any objection to our intervention in the mess to be dismissed as either a Putin apologist, "bot" or Qanon sympathizer or a comment from the peanut gallery, this dismissive attitude is frankly insulting.

So I guess the question is how much are you willing to spend and what is an outcome that you think would palatable and is achievable.

You believe the Putin propaganda he first put out. He's moved on from NATO being the reason. Maybe you didn't follow what Putin has promoted lately. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...the-great-in-quest-to-take-back-russian-lands

 

[Rhcuam]

Here’s an excellent article from the New York post, that’s not something you can say often, that explains why all the tough talk about sticking it to Putin and Russia was just talk. Whatever Russia will lose from the EU and American markets will be gobbled up by China, India, African, and South American markets.

“In Los Angeles, Mr. Bolsonaro pre-empted any push by Mr. Biden on Russia, saying that while Brazil remained open to helping end the war, “given our reliance on certain foreign players, we have to be cautious.”

“I have a country to manage,” he said.”

Biden Races to Expand Coalition Against Russia but Meets Resistance (Published 2022)

Many Asian, African and Latin American nations are maintaining ties with Russia as the United States tries to isolate President Vladimir V. Putin and end the war in Ukraine.

www.nytimes.com

 

[BigHornRam]

Here’s an excellent article from the New York post, that’s not something you can say often, that explains why all the tough talk about sticking it to Putin and Russia was just talk. Whatever Russia will lose from the EU and American markets will be gobbled up by China, India, African, and South American markets.

“In Los Angeles, Mr. Bolsonaro pre-empted any push by Mr. Biden on Russia, saying that while Brazil remained open to helping end the war, “given our reliance on certain foreign players, we have to be cautious.”

“I have a country to manage,” he said.”

Biden Races to Expand Coalition Against Russia but Meets Resistance (Published 2022)

Many Asian, African and Latin American nations are maintaining ties with Russia as the United States tries to isolate President Vladimir V. Putin and end the war in Ukraine.

www.nytimes.com

The world is heading for some dark economic times, and countries are going to do what is in their own best interest. This interview of the world bank president is 101 level, but he does bring up reckless spending as a major cause.

World Bank president on handling 'biggest slowdown of the global economy in 80 years' | CNN Business

The World Bank has dropped its global economic growth projection. Its president, David Malpass, explains why as he warns of stagflation, and suggests what could be done.

www.cnn.com

 

[Randi]

You believe the Putin propaganda he first put out. He's moved on from NATO being the reason. Maybe you didn't follow what Putin has promoted lately. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...the-great-in-quest-to-take-back-russian-lands

IMHO, this should not be discounted . I think this is possibly exactly how he feels about himself ( peter the great--II ) and the manner in which he views his invasions ( Ukraine is not his first ) Possibly even believing that the pain of the sanctions will be accepted by the Russian Citizens and seen as "the cost of making Russia whole again" With the very secret and loyal FSO protecting him, he would be hard to overthrow. Plus him and everyone in the FSO is not, or will not suffer, from the sanctions. He see's Russia as a "victim " and he is coming to the rescue.

 

[Nameless Range]

Putin Speaks His Truth