VikingsGuy
Well-known member
I've always said that smoking was France's only solution for their pension underfunding problem
Ukraine / Russia
- Thread starter Cheesehead
- Start date
and then of course, while ukraine is burning to the ground at the hands of russia, india inadvertently almost starts nuclear war of it's own.
what a world.
smh
www.bbc.com
what a world.
smh
India accidentally fires missile into Pakistan
Delhi blames a "technical malfunction" for the incident, which it called "deeply regrettable".
www.bbc.com
MinnesotaHunter
Well-known member
I am pretty sure the Ukraine didn't start this, so the alternative is Russian expansionism going unchecked, and the Ukraine being owned by Putin. At some point Russia would need to be confronted. Is the west supposed to just roll over and piss down it's leg? What we really want is a publicly weak Russia, without leverage, that is forced to rebuild bridges with the west. The Ukraine just might deliver that. In my estimation 13bil worth of military aid would be a heckuva a deal.
noharleyyet
Well-known member
The genie is everywhere...
Handlebar
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I don't believe that Ukraine started this either,
Russian expansionism is certainly something to be concerned about after Ukraine who is next Moldovia, Georgia, the Caucasus region in general, which could change their relationship with Iran if the mullahs felt like they were messing in their back yard.
But consider a publicly humbled Russia going to China and forging a much stronger alliance. China could buy every bit of energy they produce. China now has all the energy they need Russia has the customer that they need. Either way that this thing ends there will be a dramatic reshuffling of the East-West dynamic. It is hard to see how this thing plays out in the long run.
We could have the beginnings of a new "Great Game" but instead of India, China is substituted.
Long ball is what the Chinese play.
I think they are doing what is in their best interest if they don’t want to live under the Russian flag. I highly doubt they give two poops how their actions are affecting the west.
I don’t think we should be sending 13.6 billion. IMO the US should consider what is best for American citizens before what is best for Ukrainians.
Russia has been exposed, they are not quite the powerhouse they were made out to be.
that's a reasonable opinion i'd say.
though, i think it is also in our best interest as a country and alliance to live up - even if only monetarily - to commitments we've made, even if not legal, to aid and defend countries we said we'd aid and defend.
406dn
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Put me in the camp of supporting the Ukrainians monetarily. We have one hand tied behind our back in an effort not to trigger WWIII. But, I am glad we haven't turned our back on the Ukranian people.
My brother and I were talking about the unfortunate geographical location of Ukraine. They sit between Germany and Russia. Both of their neighbors have invaded them from time to time.
My brother and I were talking about the unfortunate geographical location of Ukraine. They sit between Germany and Russia. Both of their neighbors have invaded them from time to time.
VikingsGuy
Well-known member
FIFY
Well not exclusively about Ukraine, Bloodlands by Timothy Snyder is an excellent book and details the history of that region and the difficulties being stuck in between those two powers.
406dn
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I would not want to give Russia a tangible reason to use their own chemical weapons. I'd assume that Russian soldiers have gas masks and such. I doubt the general population of Ukraine is so equipped.
Irrelevant
Well-known member
I do not support that. I hope the Ukraine is wise enough that it wouldn't end well. But I also recognize that as they become more desperate as the world watches while sending it's "thoughts and prayers" they may come to a different conclusion.
I think it's sort of like nukes. If we start resorting to things like that when there are other options, we've learned nothing from history. But, that's already pretty clear. How many need to die for the guy in control?
MinnesotaHunter
Well-known member
Of course the Ukraine doesn't care, they are trying to survive. I 100% agree that we need to do what is best for the US, and the last thing I would ever want is to escalate this conflict, or see US forces involved, because it would mean I would personally be involved. However, a problem ignored, is not a problem solved. We can ignore the likes of Russia for a while. We can choose not see them as an enemy, but we can't control how they view us. This isn't just about the Ukraine to Russia, it is about reclaiming the status they believe they deserve in the world.
This is complicated, and we need to treat it as such. What are the costs to America of doing nothing? When do you think it becomes our problem? How do you feel we should be responding?
My opinion is that at some point we are going to have to deal with Russia, whether now, or down the road...
RobertD
Well-known member
I've had that one on my list for a little while now.
Good points. Putin has been open about returning Russia to its peak power and with nato eastward expansion that widow was closing. I have no issues providing some support to Ukraine, it’s kinda what we do to each other. Not 13 billion worths,not smuggling jets in, and not without considering the all impacts to US citizens, even something as small as fuel prices.
Russia is getting bogged down in a neighboring country due to supply issues, questionable military leadership, and even worse military tactics by a country with a 1/4 of the military capabilities of its self. They appear to be resorting to surrounding and pounding with bombs, rockets, etc.
As I said earlier they have been exposed, many thought they were a peer level enemy, I think this display has shown that is not the case.
What are the costs to America of doing nothing?
Didn’t say do nothing. If we did nothing Ukraine would still bleed Russia for quite a while and even if they take Kiev they would be in for a long fight for true control.
When do you think it becomes our problem? Maybe never.
I know those are overly simplistic answers to very complex issues. Sometimes these issues are hard to discuss using text only. I would imagine a few hours around a fire pit with drinks we would be able to get all this straightened out.
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MinnesotaHunter
Well-known member
I understand where you are coming from. My assessment is that Russia needs a determined, well armed, enemy to give it something to to break itself on. There is no amount of calculous we can do to predict the right decision or outcome. I think we need to consider that this might be the right opportunity to avoid expending far more blood and treasure down the road....
One concern I have is Putin has not left himself a out. Imo the longer he struggles with Ukraine he is going to get desperate and more brutal. He very well could break Russia on this, if so Ukraine is going to pay the price more so then the Russian people.
If I was in his shoes I would be at that negotiation table creating a out.
noharleyyet
Well-known member
Putin will never pick a conventional conflict with a capable opponent. He's an unscrupulous bully with a hellish hole card.
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