U.S. Vision: Development Within National Forests.

[BuzzH]

Somebody with some great vision, also decided to record K. Ross Toole's last lectures when he was teaching at U of M...good move. It also explains a lot about the article that was posted above regarding Oregons problems with corporate timber companies. Also why dropping severance taxes is a lesson in local economies and states taking it right straight in the teeth.

This lecture, was a good one on "The Price of Space and Natural Resources."

Program 02, The Price of Space and Natural Resources, 1985

K. Ross Toole lecture about Montana history titled "The Price of Space and Natural Resources."

scholarworks.umt.edu

 

[Sytes]

The Missoulian article that covered the timber wars of the past was good read, Buzz. It specifically addressed my comment about the devastating clear cutting of that rush for every board. That is the type of clear cutting I am not interested seeing, "rear its ugly head again".

The timber wars created an adverse sustainable forest for their future. I don't believe anyone would debate that. That was then...

Now? Mills in the most devastated employment #'s of Montana towns within the prime forested areas (Lincoln County / Kootenai Nat'l Forest- example) are directly related to the environmental litigation obstruction. This has been affirmed by then Kootenai National Forest Supervisor, Bob Castaneda, the USFS study (2015 presented below), and mill owners.

Unfortunate to see more timber mills in dependent communities, such as the recent Townsend, MT... almost a 10% employed population loss by this one mill's closure.

See attached .pdf regarding USFS Study of timber sales litigation.

Results from this study demonstrate that R1 experiences a relatively high level of litigation both in terms
of the number of projects that are litigated and the proportion of the region’s annual timber program
and budget that are impacted by litigation. From 2008 through 2013, R1 had more than 70 projects
litigated – more than any other FS region. In recent years, litigation has encumbered 40 to 50 percent of
R1’s planned timber harvest volume and treatment acres, and litigation of the SBR project alone
involved more than 25 percent of the Flathead National Forest’s FY 2013 timber program. The estimated
financial impact of litigation-encumbered timber volume on R1’s congressionally appropriated timber
program budget was $9.8 million in FY 2013 and $6.8 million in FY 2014.
Economic impacts to communities – in jobs, labor income, federal, state, and local taxes – are identified
as the largest potential impacts of FS litigation (potentially exceeding $10 million and 130 jobs for the
SBR project alone), particularly when timber harvesting and other land management activities that
create or maintain private employment and generate wages and other taxable revenue are reduced,
delayed, or completely forgone as a result of litigation.

 

[diamond hitch]

A side bar to the 70s rape and run was the effect on the elk herd. Vast areas of previously unroaded areas were roaded and clearcut within about 8-10 years. Horses gave way to motor cycles even before quads. The elk found themselves naked and vulnerable. Areas out of St Regis that had so many elk that the season opened in September now found them without enough bulls to get a calf crop. A serious fight evolved over seasonal road closures by 1974. Result- too little too late.

Someplace in there FWP decided a bugleing bull rifle season Was in order for September. With the enhanced access and new rules the old bulls took a real beating. Soon it was a real challenge to find a bull older than two or even a bull at all. I saw a herd of 30 cows near Plains in Dec. in the late 80s that had no calves.

With the introduction of the wolves it is now a challenge to find a cow. About what you would expect from bucket biology.

 

[BigHornRam]

More of the now.........

Same proposal, differing opinions and proposed project currently being litigated.

Bitterroot forest proposes 27,400-acre timber project near Darby

The Bitterroot National Forest is taking comments on a proposed 27,453-acre project near Darby that involves logging, prescribed burns, creation of about four miles of new roads while decommissioning 35

ravallirepublic.com

Bitterroot group sues to stop logging on elk habitat, roads in roadless area

The project would include the construction of more than 4 miles of permanent road and 8 miles of temporary road in areas that are currently roadless.

missoulacurrent.com

Who's telling the truth? FOB or the rape and run USFS?

 

[Sytes]

Read those Bitteroot articles earlier - good read BHR.

Anyone seen Jon Tester's (Democrat, btw) Gaff about enviro litigation? Regardless the gaff, I believe his intent about his feelings over those damn enviros... is real, just in the emphasis of the significance of the issue facing Montanan's, his passion got the best of him and he erred saying every timber project was being crushed by enviro litigation. When really the significant amount at the time was 40-50% of all timber projects. That's a hell of a lot in its own right.

Tester lawsuit gaffe reveals real frustration with logging litigation

Anyone who’s worked a fire lookout knows it’s tough to tell a wisp of morning fog from the smoke of a fresh lightning strike.

mtstandard.com

Yep, @Wildabeast , it is a serious issue.

Steve Daines also has an opposition towards these National Enviro organizations dumping on Montana Jobs...

“Several of these projects were developed through locally driven collaborative process that involved diverse stakeholders working together to improve forest health, and yet each one was stopped due to repeat fringe litigants capitalizing on the Ninth’s Circuits disastrous Cottonwood ruling.

Senator Jon Tester, Democrat -

“This legislation that you're going to consider today, the Litigation Relief for Forest Management Act, will help address the real and pressing issues for our Forest Service that will help put saws in people's hands, cut trees mitigate wildfire hazards, restore habitat, strengthen timber economy and maybe most importantly maintain our forest.

“It will ensure the requirements to be forest plans make sense and that the Forest Service will be able to get started on their projects, instead of being stuck in a constant bureaucracy and endless litigation. It will cut through red tape and allow for the Forest Service to spend more time in the woods and less time in the courtrooms. This legislation will help good forest projects move forward. These projects are carefully designed. They take input from Fish and Wildlife Service, they will take him put from the public and ideally they will hold up in court.

Daines, Tester Press to Reduce Red Tape for Forest Management - Senator Steve Daines

U.S. SENATE — U.S. Senators Steve Daines and Jon Tester today testified in front of the U.S. Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works on their bill to reverse the ruling of the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals in Cottonwood Environmental Law Center v. U.S. Forest Service. The bill seeks...

www.daines.senate.gov

edited to add content links for review. And... Bad lingo/grammar.

 

[Irrelevant]

Somebody with some great vision, also decided to record K. Ross Toole's last lectures when he was teaching at U of M...good move. It also explains a lot about the article that was posted above regarding Oregons problems with corporate timber companies. Also why dropping severance taxes is a lesson in local economies and states taking it right straight in the teeth.

This lecture, was a good one on "The Price of Space and Natural Resources."

Program 02, The Price of Space and Natural Resources, 1985

K. Ross Toole lecture about Montana history titled "The Price of Space and Natural Resources."

scholarworks.umt.edu

That was a helluva lecture.

 

[BuzzH]

That was a helluva lecture.

Tied into the article that rtraverdavis provided. The politicians from Oregon, as well as the local towns should have found that lecture and heeded the warning.

Yeah, there's a whole series of them...here:

K. Ross Toole’s Montana (MQTV) | K. Ross Toole | University of Montana

scholarworks.umt.edu

He was a no bullchit type when it came to a lecture. Told it like it was and didn't care what people thought. We need more of those types, too much mamby pamby these days.

 

[Sytes]

Anyone know of the hindrance on cattle grazing national forest?

Re: Kenneth Ross Toole; Sounds like a good series. Broken into 1/2hr segments makes it practical for casual listening as well.

He died in 1981. Many changes since. It will be worth the historical understanding, that's certain.

 

[diamond hitch]

I haven't seen any change on the Beaverhead-Deerlodge. My neighbors are still putting out cows on the forest. They are however finding limited access for the cows by drainages choked in downfall. Elk also are adjusting their travel patterns for the same reason.

I have also heard of losses due to wolves on their calf crops of as high as 15%. There was a picture last year of a grizz eating an angus. No idea if it was a kill or a meal of opportunity.

As close as I can tell FWP inventories the survivors of the elk crop but not the calf crop. Losses may mirror the cattle industry.

 

[BigHornRam]

What the Bitterroot National Forest has on their website concerning grazing.

Bitterroot National Forest - Resource Management

Bitterroot National Forest - Resource Management

www.fs.usda.gov

 

[Nameless Range]

Somebody with some great vision, also decided to record K. Ross Toole's last lectures when he was teaching at U of M...good move. It also explains a lot about the article that was posted above regarding Oregons problems with corporate timber companies. Also why dropping severance taxes is a lesson in local economies and states taking it right straight in the teeth.

This lecture, was a good one on "The Price of Space and Natural Resources."

Program 02, The Price of Space and Natural Resources, 1985

K. Ross Toole lecture about Montana history titled "The Price of Space and Natural Resources."

scholarworks.umt.edu

Dang! Thanks for sharing that Buzz. Folks should watch that. What a treasure trove.

 

[Nameless Range]

Tied into the article that rtraverdavis provided. The politicians from Oregon, as well as the local towns should have found that lecture and heeded the warning.

Yeah, there's a whole series of them...here:

K. Ross Toole’s Montana (MQTV) | K. Ross Toole | University of Montana

scholarworks.umt.edu

He was a no bullchit type when it came to a lecture. Told it like it was and didn't care what people thought. We need more of those types, too much mamby pamby these days.

Kind of straying from the OP but I sure loved the 26:00 mark of the video you shared. Speaking of the railroad land grants...

"16% of the state. The best land, the bottom land, in 20 sq mile sections on either side of the right of way. An enormous gift, of course, for which the Northern Pacific was profoundly grateful, and they treated us very very well thereafter, didn't they? No, they did not. They can't even run a goddamn amtrak through Missoula, MT. I want our land back."


Refreshing to hear someone speak this way. I know what I'll be listening to today.

 

[BuzzH]

Kind of straying from the OP but I sure loved the 26:00 mark of the video you shared. Speaking of the railroad land grants...

"16% of the state. The best land, the bottom land, in 20 sq mile sections on either side of the right of way. An enormous gift, of course, for which the Northern Pacific was profoundly grateful, and they treated us very very well thereafter, didn't they? No, they did not. They can't even run a goddamn amtrak through Missoula, MT. I want our land back."


Refreshing to hear someone speak this way. I know what I'll be listening to today.

Yep, very profound for 1980 in Montana.

He's one of, if not my favorite, Montana personalities.

 

[Sytes]

Great RMEF interaction w/ Secretary Perdue.

USDA Secretary Visits RMEF Project Site, Signs Memorandum Supporting Forest Management

With the stroke of a pen, U.S. Department of Agriculture Secretary Sonny Perdue recently signed a memorandum seeking to ensure the health of America’s forests. [...]

www.rmef.org

 

[BWALKER77]

Why do you think clear cutting should be a "thing of the past"? That's a perfect lack of understanding about how some forests function properly.

In at least a couple of the most common Forest Types in Montana, and the Interior West, its not only acceptable, but prudent to utilize clear cutting.

This. Certain species benefit greatly from clear cutting. Aspen in the midwest is one.
It really all depends on how its done.

 

[Sytes]

It really all depends on how its done.

Exactly my point, as exemplified in the linked article Buzz shared.

 

[BigHornRam]

It really all depends on how its done.

True. A tale of two extremes in the Bitterroot. The first is on F. S. and costs the public $100 per acre to do this, plus whatever it cost a couple years later to fix this mess.



The next was done on FWP WMA land and was done at no cost to the public.

Before


After

 

[huronmtns]

Adding some example of a clear cut for discussion. Jack pine clear cut.



BWALKER77 this is about 200 yards North of Lake Levasseur Flooding.

 

[BWALKER77]

Adding some example of a clear cut for discussion. Jack pine clear cut.
View attachment 144129View attachment 144131

BWALKER77 this is about 200 yards North of Lake Levasseur Flooding.

Shot ducks there on more than a few occasions.

 

[Irishman]

True. A tale of two extremes in the Bitterroot. The first is on F. S. and costs the public $100 per acre to do this, plus whatever it cost a couple years later to fix this mess.

View attachment 144079

The next was done on FWP WMA land and was done at no cost to the public.

Before
View attachment 144080

After

View attachment 144081