Irrelevant
Well-known member
permanent development of public land is a hard no. A hell no. A completely change the way I vote, no. I don't care if it's Mike Lee and low cost housing, O&G in refineries, or the greenist of green solar panels.
U.S. says it will cut costs for clean energy projects on public lands
- Thread starter Wildabeest
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D
Deleted member 18333
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As am I. Regardless of the project, cleanup costs need to be part of the economics
There was time when I think your second line was correct. Not certain I would agree with projects started today. Maybe I have just been fortunate to work for operations that have not saddled taxpayers with either cost or debt.
YOu still leave out the fact that the site for solar can be used infinitely, or until the comet hits us or the sun burns out, versus limited application of infill, and new development to keep that flow steady. So I think you're missing a huge part of the issue at hand relative to land use for fossil fuels versus renewables.
But ultimately, I agree that we should be doing urban development, etc. You could turn huge portions of the Rust Belt into solar farms with absolutely zero displacement, etc. There's still issues with solar panels reflecting light, heat, etc, but that can be engineered out, and I think @jryoung has talked about that in the past, but I could be wrong.
D
Deleted member 18333
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Best of luck finding a candidate to cast a vote for. IMO any candidate that runs on a platform of no new development of any kind on pubic land is either a fool or lying.
To be fair, my experience with industry is primarily at the gov't relations end. Industry tends to send people who lie to your face to deal with folks, not your most earnest or thoughtful (There's a few exceptions to that rule, like one of the old Jonah Field guys).
D
Deleted member 18333
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I've met a few of those folks in my time. Your cynicism is justified.To be fair, my experience with industry is primarily at the gov't relations end. Industry tends to send people who lie to your face to deal with folks, not your most earnest or thoughtful (There's a few exceptions to that rule, like one of the old Jonah Field guys).
D
Deleted member 28227
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At 30 years a modern gas well is probably being plugged and then you could put solar panels on the land
and that's kinda the point with solar though right? Like best case scenario the private company keeps upgrading them so that BLM is defacto private for the next 100 years or whatever.
There are lots of places to put solar panels, I'm just not in support of public lands. (mostly)
This is the validation I needed today. Thanks buddy.
@Wind Gypsy all true on the micro-grid, but don't forget the battery storage issue which is making some fairly big leaps relative to home/small business usage. A constant supply of electricity is the goal. it doesn't matter if it's stored or immediately produced.
At 30 years a modern gas well is probably being plugged and then you could put solar panels on the land
and that's kinda the point with solar though right? Like best case scenario the private company keeps upgrading them so that BLM is defacto private for the next 100 years or whatever.
There are lots of places to put solar panels, I'm just not in support of public lands. (mostly)
I want you on my dodgeball team.
I don't support it either, just like I don't support more O&G drilling on public.
I say we kick 'em all off and take the companies for ourselves. Our benevolence will know some bounds.
Wind Gypsy
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This is the validation I needed today. Thanks buddy.
@Wind Gypsy all true on the micro-grid, but don't forget the battery storage issue which is making some fairly big leaps relative to home/small business usage. A constant supply of electricity is the goal. it doesn't matter if it's stored or immediately produced.
Batteries can help for sure. Most of the new utility solar projects ive been involved with include them. They are expensive and would need to be oversized significantly to eliminate additional backup though. Reliable function at a utility scale is also less than admirable from what I've seen.
D
Deleted member 28227
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Hippies had it right... need to stop paving paradise
It's got a long way to go, but remember, it was less than 100 years ago that we even started to electrify rural America through the REA, because industry wouldn't do it due to cost effectiveness. We're seeing the same thing playing out with high-speed internet and rural areas - so there is a need for more federal funding in the R&D side of this, or even better - bring back the Eisenhower tax code and incentivize companies into doing this through taxation rather than printing more money out of thin air.
He lives in Boston, folks. Cut him some slack.
brocksw
Well-known member
Lots of wells go longer than 30 years. It's not as if an oil well is not there one day, there the next, and then gone without a trace a short time later. I can walk out to the Badlands of ND and look at wells that have been there for decades, since before I was born, and are still there today. There are over 1,400 wells in ND that are older than 30 years and still actively producing. Just under 400 of those wells were drilled before 1972, 154 of those were drilled in 1960 or earlier.At 30 years a modern gas well is probably being plugged and then you could put solar panels on the land
and that's kinda the point with solar though right? Like best case scenario the private company keeps upgrading them so that BLM is defacto private for the next 100 years or whatever.
There are lots of places to put solar panels, I'm just not in support of public lands. (mostly)
I can also walk out in the Badlands and find old "reclaimed" well pads from the 80s that have been through the reclamation process, but that spot is now nothing but clay and weeds sitting on an obviously man-made shelf on the side of a butte/hill. That probably says more about reclamation standards than it does the oil industry as a whole but, just goes to show that we're comparing shit sandwiches here not good vs bad. Either way, we're talking generational sacrifices for energy development.
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Irrelevant
Well-known member
I've been voting for fools my entire life, call me an expert at picking them.
Gellar
Well-known member
Sorry if this has been mentioned. I haven’t been following along as closely as I should but…
Every lock and dam on the Mississippi River system and Im sure the Ohio, the Illinois, the Tennessee, the Arkansas, etc is outdated and in need of repair. The lock and dams support and are a crucial component of shipping for many industries. Those industries have been lobbying for years and have actually been granted money to redo locks, although it hasn’t been apropriated to do major overhauls. Why aren’t we redoing the locks and while redoing them adding hydroelectric turbines to the dams? That would be green energy, we need the locks as a part of critical infrastructure. It seems like a no brainer to me, maybe even some of these energy companies would offset the financial burden that the army corps of engineers would be strapped with redoing the dams.
Every lock and dam on the Mississippi River system and Im sure the Ohio, the Illinois, the Tennessee, the Arkansas, etc is outdated and in need of repair. The lock and dams support and are a crucial component of shipping for many industries. Those industries have been lobbying for years and have actually been granted money to redo locks, although it hasn’t been apropriated to do major overhauls. Why aren’t we redoing the locks and while redoing them adding hydroelectric turbines to the dams? That would be green energy, we need the locks as a part of critical infrastructure. It seems like a no brainer to me, maybe even some of these energy companies would offset the financial burden that the army corps of engineers would be strapped with redoing the dams.
Irrelevant
Well-known member
Clay and weeds are things critters can at least walk across.
Report: industrial solar disrupts big-game movements - WyoFile
Paper is the first in the country to examine and quantify the impact of solar fields on big game. It isn’t anti-solar, author says, but it does ask land managers and solar companies to think about siting and design.
wyofile.com
I saw several old wellheads in the WY range while elk hunting. You're not elk hunting amidst a solar field, it's devoid of all life or other uses.
IMO it's similar to the idea that vegetarians are better for the planet vs free range beef. There is exactly zero wildlife value in a lettuce field in Salinas CA vs I can hunt deer and elk in the same allotments my parents beef comes from.
It's only political to compare O&G on public to solar as a ploy to pit a lesser of one evil against another. You HAVE to drill/mine O&G where it exists. You can place solar anywhere.
D
Deleted member 28227
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I get what your saying...
I can just as easily say... yeah well that's what happens in the desert, I can take you to active oil wells in lots of spots that you can barely find because things grow back so fast.
Which again is totally irrelevant because you level 1000 acres in ND for solar panels you're going to have the exact same effect, which is my point. You're just swapping a more surface use intensive form of energy for another and slapping a green sticker on it.
brocksw
Well-known member
Absolutely there is a difference. No one argues it's better for that immediate area than OG development. But I defer to Ben's points when looking at the big picture.Clay and weeds are things critters can at least walk across.
Report: industrial solar disrupts big-game movements - WyoFile
Paper is the first in the country to examine and quantify the impact of solar fields on big game. It isn’t anti-solar, author says, but it does ask land managers and solar companies to think about siting and design.
I saw several old wellheads in the WY range while elk hunting. You're not elk hunting amidst a solar field, it's devoid of all life or other uses.
IMO it's similar to the idea that vegetarians are better for the planet vs free range beef. There is exactly zero wildlife value in a lettuce field in Salinas CA vs I can hunt deer and elk in the same allotments my parents beef comes from.
It's only political to compare O&G on public to solar as a ploy to pit a lesser of one evil against another. You HAVE to drill/mine O&G where it exists. You can place solar anywhere.
Solar wouldn't work very well in ND with current technology. Between our weather and lack of sunshine through half the year, it's a pretty tough life for a solar panel on the frozen tundra. Which is why solar is similar to OG in that regard. Have to put it where the sun shines.
BigHornRam
Well-known member
Well at least they won't be made in China panels for a couple years.
Hold my beer Solyndra!
www.nbcnews.com
Hold my beer Solyndra!
Biden invokes Defense Production Act to boost solar panel manufacturing
The president is also issuing a two-year tariff exemption on solar panel imports from several Southeast Asian nations.
www.nbcnews.com
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